School Shootings In General - What is the solution

It is not about deterring...it is about being able to react before they cause too much harm to a bunch of defenseless sheep.
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Thats what I have been saying. The origninal poster asked "What is the solution", which to me means "how to prevent" school shootings.

I agree that armed teachers might lower the body count once a school shooting is in progress, but its not a cure for the shootings in the first place, which is what the original poster asked.

Guns are not a panacea for all problems in society.
 
The origninal poster asked "What is the solution", which to me means "how to prevent" school shootings.
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A solution is anything that substantially reduces a problem to something manageable. Crime prevention and law enforcement are both solutions. Whatever gets past the first, the second addresses. Both deterence of harm and reduction of harm are valid solutions. Just as it would be unwise to wait for crime prevention to solve all crime, it would be unwise to wait for a renewed American family structure to solve all societal problems. It never did anyway because not every family structure is sufficiently healthy, and sometimes even healthy family structures produce an aberation.

There's an old saying: "I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid." The first country Hitler attacked was not England. Ted Bundy didn't prey upon armed female police officers. Charlie Manson didn't commit murder himself; he thought he could stay out of jail by having his followers commit murder. The Columbine crazies didn't commit their suicides by attacking a police station. The Va. Tech. whackjob knew exactly what he was doing and the sheepish mindset he was going after; he brought chains and locks to give himself time to do his killing unmolested.

Most of these crazies aren't stupid. They recognize a shooting gallery when they see one. Right now, many of our schools are shooting galleries.
Guns are not a panacea for all problems in society.
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No one has advocated guns as a solution to the home mortgage mess or the high cost of health care.

So once again I ask you: What is YOUR solution?
 
I think arming teachers is as good of a reaction as any, but there is no solution (ie, you will never eliminate school shootings in the first place, which is how I would define a solution). As long as there are evil and/or crazy people in the world, you will have problems like this. As I have said, I think good parenting can detect problems early and at least reduce the chances of this happening, but even that is no guarantee.

The idea that you can reduce the body count of school shootings to a "manageable" level is a concept I don't really understand. How do you define manageable? Is one massacre a year manageable? How many innocent students can be killed and the number still be considered manageable?

Personally I don't think the Columbine shooters or the VT shooter would have been deterred by the presence of guns in the hands of teachers and/or students. They knew when they started they were going to die before it was all over.

As I have said, I am not against arming teachers. It might reduce the body count, which is good, but I would define a solution (which is what the original poster was talking about) as an elimination of school shooting, not just decreased mortality from school shootings. If we are fundamentally disagreeing on what a "solution" is, and what end point you are willing to consider a "solution", then I doubt we will ever reach consensus on this problem.
 
The idea that you can reduce the body count of school shootings to a "manageable" level is a concept I don't really understand. How do you define manageable? Is one massacre a year manageable? How many innocent students can be killed and the number still be considered manageable?
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It's no different from any other approach to crime. Is one death per year caused by a drunk driver manageable? Most people would cheer that result.

You're talking about massacres. If teachers are armed, the likelihood of any massacres will probably be much reduced. I'd say one massacre per year is better than two, and much better than three, four, five, etc. I'd say one non-massacre per year - where one or two people are killed before the shooter is downed - is better than one full massacre where ten or more people are killed.

And it isn't just kids doing the shooting. The granddaddy of school shootings was the nut who used an AK-47 against kids at a school in California. And then there was the adult man who shot up the Jewish school in California.

Armed teachers can help mitigate both scenarios. They would even be helpful if terrorists began attacking our schools.
Personally I don't think the Columbine shooters or the VT shooter would have been deterred by the presence of guns in the hands of teachers and/or students. They knew when they started they were going to die before it was all over.
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They also knew, and revelled in the knowledge, that they would take many lives first. If an armed teacher could have saved even one life, that's a good thing.
elimination of school shooting
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Unless you intend to run schools as maximum security prisons, you will never achieve total elimination. Even max security prisons have problems with violence. Again, if you are seeking perfection, you are not seeking a solution because you are not living in the real world. I doubt the OP was seeking perfection.

But again, WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION? You never offer one; you simply snipe at others.
 
I don't know how many times I can say it.... improved parenting, and arming teachers are the best ways to deal with the problem. This will at least make the problem meet your definition of manageable. But there is NO WAY to completely eliminate this problem. So asking me over and over again what is my "solution" is kind of like asking for the solution for bad manners, or terrorism, or pollution, or hate. As long as there are people, there is no SOLUTION, if we define a solution as ELIMINATION of the problem.

I guess we really agree on things. We both agree arming teachers will reduce body counts. We also agree that arming teachers won't keep school shootings from happening.

The only disagreement really is what constitutes a "solution". I took the word solution to mean "cure"; ie, to make the problem go away completely.
 
Yes Unregistered, you make a good point that these people were suicidal in the first place. So, it wouldn't necessarily deter those people from doing what they did. You make a good point.

What I meant was it might cause someone who wants to go on a rampage to think twice because they would be stopped more quickly. They wouldn't be able to "run amuck" as easily as they can now in these gun free zones.

It might make them not zero in on these areas where the people are like sheep and where they would be akin to the "big bad wolf". It might take away the sick "romantic" vision they have of themselves when they dream about massacring innocent, unarmed children.

I say it's worth a try because what the school authorities are doing now is basically NOTHING. They are entrenched in their liberal, gun fearing philosophy and incapable of reacting properly IMHO.

So many of them are so deathly afraid of firearms that we cannot expect them to react rationally with a definite plan to confront these sick, armed psychopaths. They are sheep themselves and, for some reason, unable to shed their sheep's wool. VERY sad IMHO.

If these teachers and administrators still don't see the benefit of arming some of their employees, they NEVER will. Someone will have to do it for them I'm sorry to say.
 
I don't know how many times I can say it.... improved parenting, and arming teachers are the best ways to deal with the problem. This will at least make the problem meet your definition of manageable. But there is NO WAY to completely eliminate this problem.

I guess we really agree on things. We both agree arming teachers will reduce body counts. We also agree that arming teachers won't keep school shootings from happening.
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Okay, now we're getting somewhere. You and I are in "violent agreement" on your above statements.
The only disagreement really is what constitutes a "solution". I took the word solution to mean "cure"; ie, to make the problem go away completely.
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Unfortunately, there are too many variables. For example, I once read that schizophrenia tends to hit people when they are older, say mid-20s to early-30s. The causes are unknown but likely related to diet, environment, and/or genetics. Thus, a guy/gal from a healthy family structure, who has in fact started his/her own healthy family structure, goes schizo. Until we discover how that sort of thing happens, there is no way to eliminate this problem. Thus, there is no way to guarantee we can keep schizos from attacking schools or anything/anyone else.

Sometimes, the best you can do is reduce the damage, because that is as much as you can do.

Guns are not the answer to everything. But sometimes, it's best to fight firepower with firepower.
 
Thats what I have been saying. The origninal poster asked "What is the solution", which to me means "how to prevent" school shootings.

I agree that armed teachers might lower the body count once a school shooting is in progress, but its not a cure for the shootings in the first place, which is what the original poster asked.
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Well, the OP's original question/post is a paradox. You can not stop school shootings in today's society. Parents are too many times ignorant to their child's needs and those children are at a heightened risk to commit these horrid murders.

I already offered the ONLY way to stop school shootings in my first response to this thread...to close ALL schools. But, that is not possible either. So, we must revert to: "How are we going to respond when these things DO happen?" And that is what my secondary responses have been in regards to.
 
That's what I used to think until recently. I agree that probably most college professors are liberals, but I've met a surprising number of conservative and libertarian grade and high school teachers.
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I've actually noticed something similar at the college level. There are a lot of closet pro-gun people in my experience. It isn't a friendly environment for pro-gunners, but I'm surprised by how many I've run into in the last several months.
 
I find that teachers at Junior High and elementary level often reflect the general political beliefs of their school district.
 
Kudos to the members who have kept this discussion on the high road. It is a hot-button issue that has been politely debated thus far.

Please keep up the good and thought-provoking work. :)

-Dave
 
There's a great, but underutilized, program in the military called Troops to Teachers. It involves helping military personnel transition into a teaching career once they leave the service.

One of the challenges that service members face when trying to obtain a teaching certificate is that requirements vary from state to state. It's tough to work on a Vermont certificate if you're stationed in Texas. States could make it easier for our troops by streamlining certification for them. Ideally they could substitute a current requirement with a security component.

And we're going to have thousands of potential teachers who have unique skills when they leave Afghanistan and Iraq. Not just responding to a school shooting, but identifying problems before they happen.
 
You will probably have as much luck in deflecting a meteriod from striking the earth as you will keeping school shootings from happening.

The Cleveland school had 26 videos, security guards and metal detectors. Most schools require student and faculty ID. You can mitigate this but I dont think it will ever be stopped.

The good parents will work with their kids to keep it from even getting to school. What about the parents who have mental and emotional problems, drug and alcohol problems, and working their butts to keep a roof over them and fod on the table.

If you dont get kids on the straight and narrow when they are very young its going to be rougher later on when they are 16 and older.

If I am a crazy adult guy and think that the local high school is full of aliens and they must be killed there is a chance a school shooting could happen. Or if I have been bullied by school folks most of my life and think they must die there is a chance a school shooting will happen.

Look at prisons where they cant even stop violence with all the restrictions there. You can pass all the laws and rules you want but prison killings go on full speed ahead.

You can apply security measures to mitigate school shootings but you will never stop them 100% as long as the schools have that Gun Free Zone sign up.
 
Nobody told you did they? The Gun Control Act of 68' and all the other laws in recent years made guns so much easier to get, Tougher gun laws would eliminate all school shootings. It is not at all possible that parents are to blame. It's those evil guns. We should fell sorry for the shooter. He was just a victim of those evil guns, going on a rampage and using the shooters trigger finger as a scape goat.

(In case it's not obvious all of the above is sarcasm)
 
I agree that the problem is cultural, I recall a column by Jan Libourel where
he said it wasn't the kids of his generation (and mine) who grew up with cap pistols and playing cowboys and Indians-or Army, who grew up in the Afterglow of WWII and Korea who are shooting up their schools.
The disintegration of the Amerocan family, due to the three main evils of
no fault divorce, abortion, illegitimacy and welfare is at the top of my list, followed by the lack of respect for cultural norms and what Thomas Sowell calls the "loss of civility". I also think the destigmatization of mental illness and the replacement of instutionalization-which at least kept those who refused to live by societal norms away from those who did, the attempts to
solve behavioral problems through technical means-how many more times do
we have to listen to the excuse "He stopped taking his medicine." has given free reign to those who live by the 60s mantra "Do your own thing" even if it involves criminal behavior.
I also note the steady erosion of the authority of school administrators.
40 or 50 years ago principals were the rulers of their schools, feared but obeyed because their authority was largely uncontested, nowadays most find
it easier to deal with troublemakers through "Special Ed", counseling, etc.
lest they be slapped with a law suit for violating somebody's rights.
 
some food for thought....

http://www.ed.gov/admins/lead/safety/preventingattacksreport.pdf

One of the findings was that there were some people who had knowledge of the attack before it happened!

About 75% of the shootings were stopped by people on campus or the shooter stopped. That means law enforcement is usually involved after the fact.

There is no one specific profile to predict who will commit this type of action. The shooters have some common problems but then a lot of school kids have the same problems and kill nobody.

The first course of action that would be logical is a safety program geared towards all school kids and colleges. Educating them about that fact that if someone who had knowledge had stepped forward lives could have been saved. We watched the inside video of the Columbine shooting in one of my classes. It will get your attention. Its harsh and damn unpleasant but if you could couple that with the message that if you have information about a school attack you could save lives I think some light bulbs would come on.

Your plan has to have the resources on campus. Depending upon local law enforcement is not a successful proposition if they are not on campus.

Metal detectors and on campus security are a must.

Thats a few that I can think of....
 
Let elaborate on my above post. The problem is that society as a whole is going to hell in a hand basket. I don't blame violent video games. Most of the realy violent one are "adult rated" and subject to regulations similar to X rated movies. (aka, proof of age, etc.,) Most of these kids with the violent vidoe games have them becuase their mommy bought it for them. Just like everything else they have.

Everytime something of this nature happens the first responce is to blame the tools used. In this case firearms. But as far as I'm concerned gun are neither here nor there. Had it not been for the guns he would have found something equaly deadly. But when kids grow up with video games and Internet (regardless of content) as thier babysitter quite frankly I'm surprised that there are not more school shootings. I often think it's good that I was born when I was and not any later. When I was a kid if I messed with father's guns I'd get my ass whipped. But kids these days have no sence of responsibility. They are not disiplined and do as they pleased. I think that by trying to change schools we are just treating the symptoms. Kids act a certain way becuase of the way they are brought up. It is not and has never been the place of the school system to do anything other then to teach academics. Too often parents forget that. Of course what can a parent do? If they discipline their child they'll go to jail for child abuse. Of course there's the "time out" theory but that's the biggest crock. Oh wow he misbehaves so you send him to the corner. 5 minutes later he's all but forgotten.

It is interesting to note that before Colombine it was not even thought of that a school might be a killing ground. But since then it has become ever more common. Arming teachers would serve to greatly reduce casualties resulting from such events, But if we be realistic we must admit that it would never happen in this day and age. The only way to reduce or stop school shootings in to adress the root of the problem. Bad parenting. Frankly as sad as it may be I don't foresee that happening any time in the near future.
 
Armed citizens in schools. From the teachers and admin in an elementry to students like myself in college and universities.


My answer, at least.
 
Parents

It all starts and stops with parents. Heck, many parents do not even raise thier own kids anymore. My parents raised me. No babysitters, no day care. I'll bet most of you my age were not raised by strangers.

We can learn something from animls. Animals raise thier own young. A bear doesn't drop off her cubs to be raised by another creature. She gave birth, she will do the rearing and training.

Parents need to become parents.
 
We can learn something from animls. Animals raise thier own young. A bear doesn't drop off her cubs to be raised by another creature. She gave birth, she will do the rearing and training.
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You're forgetting about the cuckoo, which uses others to rear its chicks.

The cuckoo is an appropriate symbol in many ways.
 
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