Robber walks in with gun already drawn

The OP's scenario brings to mind an old hypothetical situation: you're in a store somewhere, say getting something off a bottom shelf, and you look over and a robber is holding a gun on the clerk. Do you take him out, or continue hiding behind the display?

One argument is forget it - your life is not in danger as long as you keep hiding; a few dollars out of cash register isn't worth taking a human life, etc. etc.

The other argument is to take him out - Death Row of full of people, like the one in the OP, who robbed convenience stores, then shot the clerk.
 
.9 seconds is just unrealistic for any but the super competitors.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree.

One of the stages in our qualification course goes like this:

From the 5 yard line, draw and fire 3 rounds.

This is from a duty holster, fully secured.

You start in the interview position--like you're holding a pen and small notebook. You do NOT start your draw until the target moves.

Time allowed, until the target edges toward you again? 3 seconds.

That gives me 3 seconds to identify that the target is starting to turn, draw, aim and fire three rounds. I usually manage to get my first shot on target before the target completes its turn.
 
The major difference between a gun game and the real world is that, regardless of holding your hands away from your holster, when you're playing a gun game you know the targets about to turn. You don't have to worry about identifying anything other than the target starting to move.
A real defensive situation is apt to come as a little bit more of a surprise.
 
Training; guns....

With the proper mindset & training, you can be prepared for some lethal force incidents.

About 5/6 years ago, in my metro area, a local gun shop manager fended off three armed robbers in a "take-down" robbery event.
The armed manager reacted quickly & shot all three felons.
One fled the crime scene but was later arrested. The other two robbers were seriously wounded & charged at the scene.
If I recall the manager was not shot but he was slightly injured in the attack(by flying glass or broken wood).
The gun shop manager used good tactics & marksmanship.

These events can happen & even armed citizens can prevail against multiple felons.

ClydeFrog
 
The OP's scenario brings to mind an old hypothetical situation: you're in a store somewhere, say getting something off a bottom shelf, and you look over and a robber is holding a gun on the clerk. Do you take him out, or continue hiding behind the display?
Click to expand...

A similar situation occured when I worked in a gun shop

I was hanging some things on a display near to, but not visible from, the front door when I heard it open and a voice said "This is a hold up"

I drew my Glock and stood up 10 feet BEHIND him as he continued down the aisle, carrrying a rifle.

The ONLY thing that saved his life was the man I worked for was laughing, because he knew it was supposed to be a joke.

We didn't even tell him until a few years later how close he came to getting shot for his "sense of humor"
 
.9 seconds is just unrealistic for any but the super competitors.
Click to expand...

There is a young guy (65) shooting steal can draw and hit 5 targets in 3.8 seconds almost any arrangement.

And he is using a S&W model 66 revolver.

Doug.
 
I trained dogs and dog trainers for years, obedience training for AKC obedience titles. Dog training is 99% dog temperament (mental toughness). A dog that falls apart in a crisis can’t be fixed with training. People have that same internal programming and it’s just waiting for the right trigger to set it off. IOW, if you have ever made an unplanned high pitched noise at the onset of a crisis you should probably just hand over the money and pray.
 
I've seen better than me draw from concealment and double tap three close targets in 2.5 seconds. My best is about 3.3 but usually about 3.5.

So I'm still not applying for a job at 7-11. :D
 
Has everyone seen the video from the news last night of the guy on the train that disarmed and beat the punk who stuck a pistol in his face?.

All it took was a quick reaction without hesitation.
No fancy skills or training at all
 
The major difference between a gun game and the real world is that, regardless of holding your hands away from your holster, when you're playing a gun game you know the targets about to turn. You don't have to worry about identifying anything other than the target starting to move.
A real defensive situation is apt to come as a little bit more of a surprise.
Click to expand...

Gun game? Perhaps I was a bit vague.

The stage I described is done by me--and the other Officers in my department--as part of our qualification drill.
 
Drop, Roll, and Return FIRE, if at all possible.
Better to take action than to be executed.
I will take judged by twelve before carried by six.
 
Gun game? Perhaps I was a bit vague.

The stage I described is done by me--and the other Officers in my department--as part of our qualification drill.
Click to expand...

My point remains the same.
Whether you're "playing" with friends or "drilling" with coworkers, you're not actually defending yourself from the turning target, and you know that you're going to draw ahead of time.
Your draw speed when you're waiting and expecting to draw is going to be far faster than your "real world" draw speed.
 
My point remains the same.
Whether you're "playing" with friends or "drilling" with coworkers, you're not actually defending yourself from the turning target, and you know that you're going to draw ahead of time.
Your draw speed when you're waiting and expecting to draw is going to be far faster than your "real world" draw speed.
Click to expand...

Right! The decision has already been made to shoot. You may be standing with a pen and notebook, but you are already geared up to shoot, everything adjusted correctly, and ready to go. There are no real world consequences for shooting the wrong person. You know the range is clear behind the targets.

I run a diagnostic drill that doesn't get rid of all the variables at all, but is illustrative of what I can expect to be a best case scenario for shooting. The only timed number I figure that is remotely accurate of my real world capability is a cold drill where I get out of my car, put on my eye and ear protection, and proceed to the line for the drill without adjusting any gear or garb, then run the drill at defensive speed. I am consistently slower, or less accurate, or both on this first drill than after I warm up. When we ran this drill with the shooting group, we found folks could shave as much as 1.5 seconds off their time and increase their accuracy to 100% with shooting a Mozambique at just 7 yards...AFTER they warmed up and had everything adjusted just-so, ready for the firing line.

What this drill illustrated is that for defensive shooting purposes, a given person will not be consistently as accurate or as fast as what they like to think their accuracy and times are, not unless they get into a gun fight right after they leave the gun range.
 
Another thing to consider is the weapon itself. Most of us do not carry our competition weapon as a every day carry.
Big difference between a tuned up SIG or race gun and a pocket 9mm or .380 you dropped in your pocket or waistband on the way out the door.
One big advantage we do have in our favor most bad guys don't practice and are usually on some mind altering substance at the time.

Doug
 
Snyper said:
Has everyone seen the video from the news last night of the guy on the train that disarmed and beat the punk who stuck a pistol in his face?...
Click to expand...
Do you have a link of documentation?

Snyper said:
...All it took was a quick reaction without hesitation.
No fancy skills or training at all
Click to expand...
How do you know? How do you know what skills or training the good guy has?
 
Here is it, but it was a bus, not a train...
http://www.inquisitr.com/1067518/seattle-gunman-tackled-by-metro-bus-passengers-video/

All it took was a quick reaction without hesitation.
No fancy skills or training at all
Click to expand...

Right, no skills or fancy training were apparent. I will go for that. That was apparent, in part, by his complete and total lack of situational awareness. He was surprised to find the gun in his face, not like the robber crept up on him with stealth or hadn't robbed two other people before him, there out in the open on the bus.

He was also 1000% lucky to not be shot. He did NOT control the gun very quickly. Either the gun did not work, was not loaded, or the robber had no intention of firing because he certainly had the opportunity to shoot the guy who fought back.

That the guy was going through and robbing people and nobody said anything was unconscionable!
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top