Robber walks in with gun already drawn

Too many people are possessed of the notion that a self-defense incident is going to be like some kind of cowboy-quick-draw duel.

It's NOT. EVER. STOP THINKING THIS.

It never even happened a single verifiable time in the old west.
 
zombietactics said:
Too many people are possessed of the notion that a self-defense incident is going to be like some kind of cowboy-quick-draw duel.



It's NOT. EVER. STOP THINKING THIS.
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ZT,

Love your channel, and agree with most of what I see from you. I don't agree with the above. My disagreement isn't because I think that SD = quick draw duel. My disagreement is because I experienced a situation where somebody revealed a firearm and moved to present it, and I resolved the situation with no shots fired by beating him to presentation. The point I want to get across is not that "it is like this". Rather, my point is that we have no way of knowing what it will be like until it is happening.

I am a very big believer that draw speed is very relevant, mostly because of the possibility of resolving situations without violence. Two people I know also experienced situations where draw speed may have been the biggest determining factor in the level of violence. One was presented before he could be hit with a bat. The other failed to present before he could be physically engaged, and is now permanently disabled.

I think that draw is most relevant in situations where Ability and Opportunity are present, with Jeopardy being evidently imminent. This is to differentiate from situations where the encounter is moving before the defender sees it coming. When lethal force is being applied before the defender acts, a clean and smooth draw is far less likely. I suspect that getting off the X ASAP is job 1 at that point. Draw and everything else are less critical than "don't stand there and get killed".
 
Quick deployment along with other tactics such as moving are indeed critical in some situations, but .9 seconds is just unrealistic for any but the super competitors.

If you carry and want to get Bill Jordan/Bob Munden quick, you need three things: the right gun, the right holster, and the right technique. Both of the aforementioned gents used different guns, different holsters and different techniques, but had similar results.
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At no point were these guys timed while working behind the counter, LOL. But for argument's sake, let's use the Bob Munden standard for what a quick draw should be in a self defense situation. Wait, let's back track. First of all, how many people here are quicker than Bob Munden?

Yeah, I have shot with and competed with some pretty darned fast folks, but none were professional grade like Bob Munden. But they, like Munden had several things in common that your run of the mill robbery victim does not have. They have the luxury of a timed start when THEY ARE READY. When the timer starts, they have already determined how they are going to do what they are going to do on a known course of fire. Their lives were not at risk and they had no concern about bystanders.

If you are Bill Jordan and Bob Munden good, you aren't working at a convenience store, except in the case of Bill Jordan who did it as part of police work specifically to stop robbers. So let's get back to realism. If you are working in a convenience store, chances are you can't afford going to Gunsite 2-3 times a year and putting 500-1000 rounds a week down range. You probably can't afford 100 rounds a week. You aren't sponsored by a department, gun company, ammo company or anyone else.

No, dakota.potts, you cannot be prepared for everything. That is the sad reality. Chances are that if you try to be prepared for everything, you won't have a life outside of trying to be prepared for everything.

You can look for signs and if you watch some of the videos on Youtube, you can often tell when the robber is going to rob the clerk. Of course like with the gun competitions, you already know it is going to happen and so the conclusion that you could tell it was going to happen is really pretty bogus. After you have seen a bunch of people every week that look like they are going to rob you who don't rob you, it becomes hard to tell that you are going to get robbed when it happens. On a given winter day, a clerk may have the store rushed by several customers (just trying to get in from the cold), some wearing masks (it is cold), some who are very agitated, upset, loud, or argumentative (just having a very bad day or are typical jerks), and there will be the furtive actors as well, some of which are just plain paranoid, stoned, etc. If you work in a less than glamorous part of town, you might have a lot of these each day. So 'knowing' you are about to be robbed and being 100% on your game to repel the robbers just isn't a reality for your average Joe Blow clerk. It doesn't matter who you are. Even professionals exposed to repetitive and frequent false alarms are unable to maintain levels of readiness necessary to be properly proficient when the time comes. You can try, but despite the claims of various gun gurus, nobody maintains Condition Yellow all the time.
 
"... a self-defense incident is going to be like some kind of cowboy-quick-draw duel.*

It's NOT. EVER. STOP THINKING THIS.

It never even happened a single verifiable time in the old west. "

Really? In the Old West? How about Bill Hickok? William McCarty? Jesse James? I could go on. The common thread, these pistoleros died because they were ambushed.

Same today... few will call you out... most will ambush you. Nothing has changed. And some folks even today use SA revolvers, check out the revolver forum. Why a woman in Aspen Colorado shot a perp using a 44 cal black powder cap and ball Remington Army 1858 revolver. One shot.

And even here, Police Chief was almost car-jacked... and the last Police Chief has referred to the environs of Detroit as the "Wild West." +

And if you do a search on Detroit and shoot-outs you can find relevant videos.

The quicker I can get my handgun out the better, and Lady Luck.



* The classic one-on-one "cowboy-quick-draw duel" occurred as early as 1865, Hickok vs. Tutt. One should also recall that one of our presidents actively took part in duels.

+""Police Chief Calls Detroit “The Wild, Wild West”" Newsone, August 10, 2009
 
I doubt you could outdraw someone like that.
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Not true, not true at all.

After the Onion Field incident, police departments across the country adapted the policy "never give up your gun" and started a training program that showed that is not true.

I was a firearms instructor with the Anchorage Police Dept. at the time and we did just such training. It's not only possible but you increase your chances of survival with the training.

I'm retired now but still do such training. As a demonstration, I have one of my students aim at his target, I stand next to him/her with my hands in my pocket. I tell the student to fire at his target when he/she sees me start to draw. About 98% of the time I get the shot off first.

Pretty much the same way we did it with I was in LE, except now I pocket carry which is so much faster.

Another training aid is to have a student stand with his open hands extended as if he was going to clap, the hands are body width apart. Again, I start with my hands in my pockets. I tell the student to clap when he sees me start to draw. Seldom, less then 1% of the time do they clap their hands together before I get my gun between the hands (using a blue plastic gun, don't do it with a real gun obviously).

One poor girl in my class last night tried 10 times but still couldn't beat the gun.

In both of the above training scenarios, the student knew what I was going to do, yet couldn't beat me.

The idea is "you can act faster then you can re-act" The students knew what I was going to do, but they had to re-act where I had to act.

Best if you can distract you opponent, getting them talking is best, can't talk and shoot at the same time.

Its not about strength. Its not about being young and agile, I'm neither.

It's about confidence, confidence is gained by hours of practice and handling your gun. The gun has to be as comfortable in your hand as a cell phone is to a teenage girl.

Again its how you carry and what you carry. If you have to fight with cover garments or safeties it's going to be difficult. If you walk around with your hands in you pocket, the same one the pistol/revolver is in, its more doable.

I'm not saying I'm the best out there, what I'm saying is I have confidence.

Before you start ranting and calling me full of crap, (which is gonna happen), I teach a woman's Firearms Safety & Self Defense class every Wed. night, I challenge you to show up and test me.
 
Glenn and Kraig are right on. Training,training,training.

You can beat it, you are against the curve but you can do it.

I beat it 2 times as a big city cop. Both times the actor received a broken arm.
 
Lots of good comments so far. I will only add that there can still be an element of surprise that slows down a robber's reaction, in the sense that an armed robber may not expect resistance of any sort. It just may take him some variable amount of time to recognize that you are not complying and to make the decision to fire. Will it be enough? Maybe, maybe not, but if you quit you are sure to lose. Move, distract him, grab his gun, draw and fire - whatever you think might work. But you cannot wind up more dead than you would be otherwise.
 
Youtube.com/Daytona Beach FL area incident.....

About four/five years ago, a video was put up on www.youtube.com of a plain clothes security officer(retired LE officer) who shot a strung out robber in a drug store. The incident was in the Daytona Beach FL area.
The security guard/ex-cop used good tactics & was able to end the critical incident without any excessive risk to the store employees or any customers who might have been in the area.
It's worth viewing.
The armed officer moves to the side & then gets to the rear of the thug.

In US military aviation, this is called OODA loop. ;)
Observe, Orientate, Decide, Act.
Trained license holders(CCW/gun permit) or armed professionals can apply the OODA method when faced with these critical incidents.

In general, as discussed in other TFL topics, if a armed robbery or lethal force incident looks like it could quickly turn into a hostage situation or there are multiple bystanders around, I would not draw a firearm or deploy lethal force.
In that event, it would be more prudent to leave or flee & contact 911/law enforcement.

CF
 
Yep, if you are already at a disadvantage, you need something to regain the advantage. Speed, surprise, and violence of action are generally the common choices. Creating a distraction and quickly attacking/escaping is a common tactic. It certainly takes a level head and guts though!
 
If you see the guy draw his gun and start to bring it up... move and move FAST.

I don't care where you move as long as it is toward some kind of cover.

Then you have a bit of time to assess and bring your weapons to bear.

Deaf
 
The scenario is daunting because (1) the criminal already has his gun ready and (2) most stores do not allow employees to go to work armed. Some stores actually train employees not to fight back, informing them that to fight back is to be fired. The same stores do not provide security glass or a secure working environment for those employees. I think the most prudent thing is not to work in such establishments. The pay is not very good in the first place and it should not be hard to find a better or equivalently paying job in a better environment.

In the midst of fighting for their life, the employee has to overcome the employer's "training" which says to just give the robber what he wants and you will be OK. Too often, robbers shoot compliant victims after getting their loot.

Employers are not going to provide practical self defense tactical training because that would be a tacit admission that the work environment is dangerous.
 
Your options depend somewhat on how close the person is to you. If the person makes the mistake of getting too close, there's a high likelihood you can deflect his gun with a quick sweep of the arm, giving you time to draw your own before he can recover his balance. More advanced techniques are also available, but I am not going to advocate anyone do something that makes it more likely they will get shot. If a person has you dead-to-rights, your safest bet is usually to cooperate until they either make a mistake or they do something to make you believe they intend to kill you. Just be ready to move at a moment's notice, regardless of what path you take.

A good indicator that they intend to kill you rather than simply rob you is if they try to move you to another room. I do not remember the reference, but when a criminal tries to move you to a secondary scene there is a VERY high likelihood they're going to kill you.

There is no "one size fits all" here. You must keep your wits about you, pray you survive, and be ready to take action at a moment's notice, whether that action is diving to the floor or moving to deflect / disarm.
 
People get a little too delicate when I say this, but I'll say it anyways for the sake of conversation and planting the seed.

What stops a violent criminal with a gun? A good guy that's better at being violent with a gun. Even if you subtract firearms from the equation. A good guy that's trained to be as violent or even more violent when they need to to defend their life will triumph. Buying a gun and carrying it after going to range a couple times doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of required training.

They have the drop on us. Period. Most we can do is prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
 
Having a gun doesn't always make you equal. You can have the fastest reflexes the quickest trigger finger and the most accurate shot. But bad stuff happens.
 
This reminds me a lot of DeFoor on mindset. The feeder vs receiver, defender vs go on offense bit really resonates.
 
Some stores actually train employees not to fight back, informing them that to fight back is to be fired.... Too often, robbers shoot compliant victims after getting their loot.... Employers are not going to provide practical self defense tactical training because that would be a tacit admission that the work environment is dangerous
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Store policies are directed by insurance which is dictated by statistics.

While I agree completely that too many people are killed by robbers (1 would be too many), it's extremely rare that compliment victims are killed.
The overwhelming majority of convenience robbers don't kill anyone. According to the FBI there were 354,520 robberies in 2012, resulting in 652 homicides, which means that even if you're being robbed, the likely hood that anyone's going to get killed is less than 0.18% (less because the raw number of homicides doesn't take into account multiple homicides resulting from one robbery etc.). However, those odds go up significantly when employees resist (DOJ pg16). Most robbers just want money, but - like anyone - are far more likely to become violent if they perceive a threat.

That, coupled with the fact that the average cost of "an episode of workplace violence" is around $250,000 for the store, and the average robbery nets under $1000 is why most businesses discourage employees from resisting. Not because they don't want to admit that the job can be dangerous.

I am not saying that nobody should ever resist a robbery. Sometimes it's absolutely the right choice. However, we also don't want to get carried away with the posturing.
It seems like things end badly far more often then they do, because that's what makes the news. And with national news coverage, we even hear about the horrible crimes that get committed 1000's of miles away. And we hear about them over and over and over.
It's why, despite the fact that violent crime rates have been going steadily down since the 70's people still perceive things as getting worse.

I hate to "go against the flow" as it were, but armed resistance isn't always the most tactically sound option. If you're working behind the counter and someone walks in with a gun, statistically, it's safer and a good deal cheaper to give them the money than is is to go for a gun.
In your house, or in an ally it might be a different story.

But, gauging your baseline response to robberies on statistically anomalous events (like the story in the OP) is - logically - on par with basing gun legislation on .... well, "statistically anomalous events".
 
Reminds me of an old Jeff Cooper dictum, "You know you have trained enough when the person trying to kill you is in more danger than you are."
 
Evan Marshall....

Retired LE officer, author & gun writer; Evan Marshall once wrote in a gun press item that as a cop(or retired cop), he would not act in a armed robbery event unless the crooks were starting to put victims(bystanders) on the ground or told them to lay down. Marshall, who retired from the Detroit MI police department(most of it in the 1960s/1970s) said when thugs do that, they plan to murder any witnesses. :eek:

As noted, you can not predict or assume what a armed robber, thug or hostage taker is going to do. You can follow your formal training or make tactical decisions ;).

In some critical incidents you should use restraint but in others it may require violence of action.
As the formal motto of the UK's elite SAS or Special Air Service; Those Who Dare, Win!
 
As the formal motto of the UK's elite SAS or Special Air Service; Those Who Dare, Win!
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Another motto/gun saying that just isn't necessarily true. Many who do not DARE also win. Many who do dare end up dead. That you dared to take action does not in any way imply that you will win. It just means that you dared to take action.

Mottos and sayings are typically nothing but feel good devices and are typically not strategy or tactics for life and death situations.

I don't see the guy working at the convenience store as having SAS training and living by such a motto should armed bandits enter.

Glenn and Kraig are right on. Training,training,training.

You can beat it, you are against the curve but you can do it.

I beat it 2 times as a big city cop. Both times the actor received a broken arm.
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Again, how many convenience store employees of ALL the convenience stores we have are going to have "Training,training,training" as you put it? Chances are that if they can afford Training,training,training, then they aren't working in a convenience store.
 
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