Robber walks in with gun already drawn

While I agree that training all convenience store employees to our superninja level probably won't happen - the OP has mentioned that he wants to ascend to at least SuperSayian 3 in the gun world.

Thus, if the question is asked in that context - the comments that the OP should seek out Masters Yoda or Roshi make sense.

Once you can use the force or ki with sufficient intensity, resistance may not futile.

I apologize for the Big Bang level of analysis but guns do make a Big Bang.
 
Once you can use the force or ki with sufficient intensity, resistance may not futile.
Click to expand...

As I noted earlier; however your odds are still not good. Even the worst chance is better than no chance.
 
Of the three store robberies friends of mine went through:

1) All the robbers had them lay down- two were tied up.
2) None of the victims were shot
3) I asked- and none of them though they could have beaten the robber to the "punch" so to speak.

IMHO- TenRing has it right. Avoid those work environments. Why put yourself at risk?
 
Not to divert but for new immigrants or victims of the economy, that's what they can get. Starting up a small store is a good entry to the American Way.

We had a horrific killing of a couple running a decent mom and pop Asian restaurant near where we live.

We shouldn't really blame the victims for having a job. Not being preachy and I would avoid such but my animus is towards the killers.

Back to tactics and off moral philosophy?
 
Glenn concluded:
Back to tactics and off moral philosophy?
Click to expand...
There is another defense that seems to becoming more prevalent, the sequestering of the clerk behind 2" of "bullet proof" material.
Ironically, shoplifting often rises in some of these stores according to an acquaintance in the biz.

That may be the wave of the future in high crime areas.
 
While wroking at a 7-11, my ex had to stand there waiting for the 'bank' to kick out $$ at 5 minute intervals at gunpoint. She started talking the guy up about his 'cool' handgun. As he was handing it to her so she could look it over, he came to his senses at that moment and grabbed the money he had and ran out.
She said he was 1/2 second from meeting his maker. YMMV.
 
Tactics

I think self defense tactics are important. Defending the building is equally important. For example, in order for the employees to have time to spot a thug walking in with a gun, there needs to be plenty of bright light at the entrance, cameras at all ingress points and monitors displayed in the store at easy to see positions. Employees need to see who is coming in before they actually get in.

It would also be good to use a double door entrance where there are two glass doors and a distance of about three or four feet between them. The person walks through the first door and but the last door must be buzzed by employees in order for anyone to enter. This setup is seen in major cities but not so much in suburban areas.

There was video circulating of a bank robbery where the robber was trapped between the doors after robbing the bank. He tried to kick through the glass, but he couldn't. He was arrested.
 
he would not act in a armed robbery event unless the crooks were starting to put victims(bystanders) on the ground or told them to lay down.
Click to expand...

Forgive me for not recalling the source, but I recall reading that around 1/3 of the time that an assailant relocates a victim - to another room, a car, whatever - that they will kill. The article recommended the strongest possible resistance to being removed from the initial scene.
 
* The classic one-on-one "cowboy-quick-draw duel" occurred as early as 1865, Hickok vs. Tutt. ...
Click to expand...

The entire Hickock vs. Tutt story is based upon a second-or-third-hand story told to a Harper's Bizarre writer named George Nichols, by a well-known fabulist, who called himself "Captain Honesty" (real name was Richard Bently Owen). Whether the fault of Owens or Nichols, Hickock's name became "Hitchcock" in the published article ... apparently details like getting the name right were as unimportant as the facts themselves.

Owen's story, as told later, changed several times. In one version the men counted off 50-paces in classic old-world dueling style, turned and fired. In another version the men saw each other on a crowded street and opened fire at 50 yards. The "crowd" sometimes became only the two men themselves on a lonely dust-blown street. In some versions, it was a fight over a watch lost in a poker game, other times over a woman.

The Harper's story was one of the first which cemented the idea of the "cowboy duel" in the minds of the reading public.

Hickock was tried for murder, but the only 4 people (no "crowd" present) who were a witness to the event (not one of them "Captain Honesty") testified that Tutt began shooting at Hickock without warning, missed and then Hickock returned fire ... from cover according to one witness.

Even that is debatable, as the witnesses were not considered the most reliable sorts.

I cannot find a single, verifiable report of a "cowboy quick-draw" duel occurring even once once in the old west.

I appreciate the fact that this is a cherished notion, and I am taking on the role of the guy telling everyone that "there is no Santa Claus". If someone can point me to actual evidence from reliable sources stating otherwise, I'd be happy to see it.


Does it ever happen? Perhaps. It just appears to be in the Bigfoot/Unicorn realm. This is no excuse for poor basic skills, or being "just plain slow".
 
Last edited:
While I agree that training all convenience store employees to our superninja level probably won't happen - the OP has mentioned that he wants to ascend to at least SuperSayian 3 in the gun world.

Thus, if the question is asked in that context - the comments that the OP should seek out Masters Yoda or Roshi make sense.

Once you can use the force or ki with sufficient intensity, resistance may not futile.
Click to expand...

Very funny, Glenn I wasn't aware that there were multiple levels of Super Saiyan. Things you learn on TFl.

Being serious, things I've learned in this thread:

Training gives you more options than you thought you ever had

No amount of training will ever be "enough" training to always tackle a situation head on.

The best situation may be one where you don't use your gun even if you have it and there's an opportunity. Or it may not be.

I was just discussing with my girlfriend today that my line in the sand would be a robber with a gun because I don't know his intentions.

I may have to re-think that and see if that's still how I feel about it.
 
I cannot find a single, verifiable report of a "cowboy quick-draw" duel occurring even once once in the old west.

I appreciate the fact that this is a cherished notion, and I am taking on the role of the guy telling everyone that "there is no Santa Claus". If someone can point me to actual evidence from reliable sources stating otherwise, I'd be happy to see it.
Click to expand...

Your argument about the old west gun fights may have merit, but your argument that quick draw skills won't save your life is just plain naive. What happened in the old west has no bearing on what might happen at your corner convenient store today. Quick draws have saved people countless times, though it is far from the norm.

For dakota.potts, here is an example of where a gunman appears with gun in hand and a clerk, who works with another, uses her to shield his initial movement as he then quickly draws and fires.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk

Here is one where robbers enter and the guard quickly draws and fires...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_OuLsNR_wA

This is a classic ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy6DGppUoh8

Contrary to your original post, nobody thinks it will be a cowboy style duel. Nobody stops a robbery by calling another person out into the street to determine the success of the robbery by a duel.

However, the quick-draws that may have been made popular by old westerns certainly have a very real application in self defense against robbers.
 
Even in a classic showdown - you are not necessarily doomed by facing a drawn gun.

In an Insights class, Greg Hamilton with gun holstered had an advanced student face him with gun drawn. The student was to simulate a robbery. While the student was making his robbery speech, Greg drew and 'shot' him. Talking is a capacity load on attention and while no guarantee, you can use it to your advantage.

There's really no substitute for good FOF. Speculation is just fine but not sufficient.
 
"I cannot find a single, verifiable report of a "cowboy quick-draw" duel occurring even once once in the old west."

Not looking hard enough. Recall during a card game two (cheating) desperados pulled their guns on Wyatt Earp, but before their guns could clear leather, Earp's gun was out. Doc Holliday (who witnessed the incident) said Earp's draw was so fast that he could not follow it with the eye. No video link tho, sadly, no CCTV back then.

As for Hickok vs Tutt, that's a long discussion: two men, two quick shots, one miss, one hit. Let's face it duelling has been around since the fields of Troy (and before).

Ahoy Double Naught, thanks for the video links, the gent in the 3rd one was very smooth.
 
Right Glenn, but FOF training is still nothing but a form of speculation in its own right. It isn't lethal force and doesn't hold lethal force consequences and all parties know that. They are free to try anything without dying. Safety protocols are in place and often the participants are very well aware of exactly how many players are actually involved.

When it comes to examples, there most definitely is a substitute for FOF training examples. That would be reality. People often defeat robbers who have come in with guns drawn or draw their guns first.
 
Last edited:
... Recall during a card game two (cheating) desperados pulled their guns on Wyatt Earp, but before their guns could clear leather, Earp's gun was out. Doc Holliday (who witnessed the incident) said Earp's draw was so fast that he could not follow it with the eye. No video link tho, sadly, no CCTV back then.
Click to expand...

Source ... other than "old west tales"? With genuine respect, I've tried to find an actual historian who even takes the notion seriously. No luck yet. If it happened, it was rare as hen's teeth. For those with the time and inclination, I can recommend serious books and peer-reviewed papers.

And seriously, my argument is not against the utility of solid skills. In the three earlier linked videos, for instance, I did not see especially speedy presentations, but rather solid fundamentals applied well. I saw no "quick draw" maneuvers. Maybe we are missing each other over terminology.

Rather, my suggestion is that there is far more to the equation than "oooh he's dead-eye fast!". The earlier video with the hotel clerk is an apt example, not of a quick draw, but of a cool head and good tactics.

There is nothing wrong, and a lot right with gaining a fair amount of speed. It just should not be the sole metric of self-defense skill, nor will it likely be the determiner of a trip home vs. a trip to the morgue.
 
Last edited:
""Source ... other than "old west tales"?""

Well I remember the citation, but you can look it up since you apparently know all.

Also some of us folks hold degrees from prestigious universities and some (including myself) have been published by a prestigious academic press. Then again, in academic circles I have been considered something of a maverick.

"There is nothing wrong, and a lot right with gaining a fair amount of speed. It just should not be the sole metric of self-defense skill, nor will it likely be the determiner of a trip home vs. a trip to the morgue. "

Well with my bad back it is more or less is the sole metric.

Hen's teeth huh... well perhaps my next book will feature Old West characters who were quick with a gun.
 
And seriously, my argument is not against the utility of solid skills. In the three earlier linked videos, for instance, I did not see especially speedy presentations, but rather solid fundamentals applied well. I saw no "quick draw" maneuvers. Maybe we are missing each other over terminology.
Click to expand...

Festina lente
 
And seriously, my argument is not against the utility of solid skills. In the three earlier linked videos, for instance, I did not see especially speedy presentations, but rather solid fundamentals applied well. I saw no "quick draw" maneuvers. Maybe we are missing each other over terminology.
Click to expand...

Then please, in 500 words or less, define 'quick draw' in an exclusive manner clearing stating what it means while being sure to distinguish it from a not quick drawn, but also distinguishing it from how it does or does not relate it to the application of solid fundamentals.

I have been to a lot of competitions and watched people's quickest draws. I can tell you for a fact that there is a wide range of speed when it comes to quick draws, but since you apparently have a clear cut notion of what one is and somehow apparently have correlated this with wild west gunfighting (where no timers were ever used, no video, no film), then please do explain in detail what a quick draw is.

In each video that I presented, the draw was certainly quick enough to take each and every one of the robbers by surprise and in two of them, it happened in front of them.
 
DNS - I've been in FOF where I didn't know how many were involved and while not lethal, I've pulled a bloody t-shirt off my back from the simulated rounds.

I don't think we are arguing - I think that it is possible to resist and it helps to have some experience in the closest we can get.

That's what's done in many critical incident training venues for other emergencies also.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top