Robber walks in with gun already drawn

I look at it like you will never be 100% prepared, if its your time, its your time.

The other way I look at these situation is a comment I heard in a knife fighting class, any knife fight you ever get into, expect to be cut. In that situation most people will say give the bad guy what they want and they should go away. For reasons such as your friends story, that doesn't sit too well with me all things considered. Like others have stated, there are gun grabs, and movement techniques, always a last ditch effort but it could mean the difference in life or death. I would expect if you were going to fight back in that situation that you will get hurt... but being hurt even severely is a whole lot better than being dead.

A friend of my fathers who was a LEO survived two such scenarios. The person held the firearm out at him, he did not have time to initially draw, the first time was a revolver, he managed to grab the gun and he held onto it as tight as he could and wrenched the guys wrist while they fell to the ground. Luckily with a revolver a person has more than enough strength to hold the cylinder, not letting it rotate to fire, still something I would never wanna attempt.

The other was a semi auto, he grabbed the gun, the guy actually managed to get the shot off, wounding my fathers friends hand/arm, but since he had his hands on it, the gun jammed, and he came out with his life that night.
 
There was a U-tube video floating around of the same thing happening to a x-military guy working at a convenience store. He just reached out and grabbed the bad guy's gun and stuck his in his mouth.

Doug
 

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Well I remember the citation, but you can look it up since you apparently know all.

Also some of us folks hold degrees from prestigious universities and some (including myself) have been published by a prestigious academic press. Then again, in academic circles I have been considered something of a maverick.
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Don't be coy. If you know better, and can provide reliable sources, I am open to instruction & correction.
 
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The basic technique I would attempt to use if I were forced to attempt a disarmament is this: sweep, step inside and grab forearm with inside arm, followed by grabbing gun with outside arm. Once I control the gun in a way that it cannot be pointed at me, elbow, meet face. Face, elbow. Repeat until he lets go of the gun.

Incidentally, an elbow to the face is devastating and has the potential to blind a person, knock out teeth, break a nose, or potentially even kill. It is NOT something you should ever do in a non-life-threatening situation. No matter where it hits, it's going to do damage.
 
Then please, in 500 words or less, define 'quick draw' in an exclusive manner clearing stating what it means while being sure to distinguish it from a not quick drawn, but also distinguishing it from how it does or does not relate it to the application of solid fundamentals.
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I am referring to the classic cowboy duel, as exemplified in movies like "The Quick and the Dead" and countless others. It assumes that one "wins" a fight by being some nth-of-a-second faster on the draw. A single shot is often all that is required, as it somehow, magically (unlike reality) renders the opponent unable to fire his own gun ... as he crumples lifeless to the ground as if hit by an instant death ray.

I cannot find reliable evidence that such a duel occurred even once in the old west. If it did, it is the exception rather than the rule by a long shot.

1887 Fort Worth, Texas, Luke Short and Jim Courtright dueled in a called-him-out-on-the-street duel.
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Historical source, please? I am aware of some tall tales regarding this supposed incident, which like most of these stories, vary so widely in details that nobody can say with a straight face which version is correct ... or if any of them are.

In some versions of this tale Courtright shoots first, but misses, and then Short plugs him with 3 rounds in the heart. In another version, Short empties his gun into Courtright so quickly that he never has a chance to return fire, "dying before his head met dust".
 
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WardenWolf said:
The basic technique I would attempt to use if I were forced to attempt a disarmament is this: sweep, step inside and grab forearm with inside arm, followed by grabbing gun with outside arm....
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And if there's a counter or another obstruction between you and the robber?
 
As I said, that is a forced situation. And I by no means said it is an all-in-one solution. It is ONE technique, for ONE situation. It is, however, a solution that one who is not highly-proficient in martial arts has a chance of pulling off. You make the best you can do with the situation you have. Sometimes the safest bet is to take your chances that if you give him what he wants, he'll let you live. Not all situations are alike, and sometimes the odds are more stacked against you than others. You have to learn to recognize this.

Any situation where you MUST perform a disarm is a last-ditch situation. You will either succeed or be killed or seriously wounded if you fail.
 
And the point is that we can not focus on a specific technique because what might work will depend on a variety of factors, including exactly what is happening and what the defender is capable of.

The bottom line is that there may be possible ways to overcome an adversary's advantage, but there are no guarantees.
 
If there was a counter between us... and assuming I was armed strong side IWB.... if I felt it was my only last resort option....

It is generally a natural reaction when a gun or knife pointed at a person is for them to raise their hands. I was taught in a few self defense classes most "bad guys" doing muggins and hold ups will basically expect you to raise your hands when threatened. This is the perfect opportunity to strike since your already motioning your hands up.

Again I am no expert or tactical commando or what have you, but I am assuming even at the counter the gun is in with in arms reach. I would try to strike the gun up basically grab his wrist or the gun and force it upwards with my off hand while trying to draw using my main hand. Would it actually work, who knows, I just feel like it might be a decent option and doesn't require any fancy moves, more of less its quick, deliberate, gross motor functions, but even those can go out the window under stress.

I am sure someone with more force on force training can tell me if I am nuts or not.:rolleyes:
 
We have our sales counter set up in a "L" shape in a relatively small room. No one can stand in front of the counter and see both guys stationed at computers on either end of the "L" at the same time, despite their very close proximity. On wonderful 8 Mile in Motown we have had people walk in we were certain had bad intentions, but the setup put them well out of their comfort zone....
Businesses need to be more proactive in their layout, just a few seemingly minor changes can put criminals at a big disadvantage.
 
You can't prepare for everything, but you can hope that your awareness & timing gives you an advantage in whatever OODA Loop you may find yourself caught.

You learn, train & practice for what you anticipate you might actually encounter, and hope to handle the situation.

Develop an ongoing mindset to be able to react properly & effectively.

There was this one night when I was driving my POV on a major freeway, on the way home after getting off shift ... and my right/rear window took 2 hits/rounds from someone shooting at my car off in the dark somewhere. Annoying. Fortunate for me the shooter didn't appear to know how to lead a target traveling at freeway speeds, too.
 
I've never been in that situation, but it seems to me that movement would be your best option. Drop, roll, run, whatever might cause the shooter to miss.
 
Probably not many, but here's one. This happened close to where I live.
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LOL, Joe, I posted this video already in post 52 and I just used him as an example of a quick draw, but he apparently does has training as per his background, which is great.

Now let's look at the number of convenience stores in the US. How many are there? As of Dec 2012, nearly 150,000.
http://www.nacsonline.com/AskNACS/P...ce-stores-are-there-in-the-United-States.aspx

And there are an average of about 9 employees per store.
http://www.csdecisions.com/2012/04/10/managing-todays-retail-workforce-2/

So you are looking at 1.35 million convenience store employees. Somewhere in there you are going to have some that are trained, no doubt, but how many are trained and actually armed? So you have a figure that goes from small to tiny.

Oh, and of course, the guy you and I both cited isn't in a convenience store, but a liquor store. There are about 43,000 liquor stores in the US employing about 173,000 people.
http://www.statisticbrain.com/liquor-store-statistics/
 
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A recent article by Greg Ellifritz has bearing on this conversation:

From the article said:
... Up until the early 1990′s. most trainers taught their students to stand still, draw their weapons and shoot as quickly as possible when a criminal was attempting to draw a gun at close range. Some advocated special positions (the “speed rock” is one example), but the general idea was that the student should just work to be faster on the draw than his opponent. It was almost like a Hollywood western movie where two guys square off and start blasting. This technique didn’t work very well. - See more at: http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/extreme-close-range-shooting-problem#sthash.BmqpxYFz.dpuf ...
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No data presented on how students of the technique actually did in real life. Also, they were not drawing on drawn guns but against the bad guy's draw. No analysis pertaining to the issue of standing still which is considered to NOT be a good idea unless one has proper cover. It was not just the draw 5hat was problematic.
 
:D:eek: Wife and I had a situation some years back when our area was like a war zone. It could have been a telling story on the OP's question.
Two dudes were poking around at my shop, so I had my gun out and at my side when I asked what they were doing. "None of your business!" was the reply.
I said they were trespassing and had nodded to my wife to finish calling PD. She was at their 9 o'clock. I was about 15' from them and said I was making it my business. One said we're PD and made a fast move under his jacket.
I said freeze, I have you covered and brought my pistol around, but not pointing yet. They looked at me, then each other and I thought they were both going to draw then and there. (If they had, we'd have a definitive answer for OP,btw.)
I said uh-uh, she's got you covered! They looked and she waggled her pistol.
One said we really are PD. I told them to slowly open their jackets and when I saw the pistols and badges, I still asked for ID.
They showed ID and we holstered and said we were sorry, but covering our bases.
We BS'd a bit and said we had handled it correctly and there were no hard feelings. They were investigating the latest abduction and rape that had occurred at the shop overnight. Blocking my one-way street to preserve a crime scene and calling PD was a morning routine for me.

Not trying to hijack, but this reminded me of the incident and I believe they were going for it too.:eek:
 
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