Riot defense senario

The key issue is your goal state. Mine is to survive along with my family.

The initial poster had saving material positions as a close to equally important priority.

The initial poster also decided to start the thread with Something doesn't go the way of the "poor" and "oppressed." .

I regard that as irrelevant baiting. One might has easily have said that you are a minority and a racist mob is coming to your house. This has in fact happened. African-american men defended their homes and let their families escape.

Thus, one has to discuss mind set and motive. This is a common discussion in most tactical classes. Even the initial poster had posited in most civilian training classes that he would not take an opportunity to flee because:

Your life is more than just the beating of your heart. They say a man's home is his castle, I say stay and fight for it. .

It would not be judged as a judicious act and probably as posturing.

The only sensible solution to such a situation is:

1. Your priority is you and your family's physical safety.
2. Chose the option that optimizes it.
3. If your action saves your stuff, that is nice but epiphenomenological.

One trains to have the ability to use lethal force - as a tool for saving your butt first.
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Mr. Meyer (Prof.? I think you mentioned you taught college in another post?)
My post has nothing per se to do with what race the "poor" and "oppressed" might be or might not be (the riots of the French Revolution were white on white. Revolutionaries of all races and backgrounds have always managed to find some problem real or imagined and blown it up to work up those who have less against those who have more in the name of "justice".), it has nothing to do with some wild eyed kid running around in a G.I. Joe outfit or "commando boy and the neighborhood ninjas". It's about a sound and rational man (you me or whoever) having good enough relations with his neighbors to cooperate with them as to defending our homes in an effective and competent way. As far as your neighborhood people being offended at having to take up arms because the rioters might be of a different race doesn't speak well for your neighbors. If a mob of any race is ready to ransack my home and beat me and my family to death and those on my street "I'd kill them as quick as I would a white man" to quote John Wayne (Cahill: U.S. Marshall). In short, race isn't an issue. I would venture to say that you underestimate your neighbors.

It is not about posturing. That statement, while it sounds like an abstract battle cry, is true. If you did what you believe to be right, getting out of Dodge with the wife and children, you would likely come back to a burned pile of rubble. Your home is gone, your clothing is gone, your food is gone, your furnishings are gone, your books are gone, your computer is gone, and family heirlooms are gone to name just a few important items that are either necessities for life, part of your life or part of long hours or even years research or investments that cost a lot of money that you worked hard for.
That is VERY difficult to recover from and could take years, even if your insurance covers it all (I've heard of flood and fire insurance....but riot insurance?...guess it would fall under fire.). You would have to take time off from your job to rebuild and restore yourself. You would have to dig up enough money out of your savings to clothe and feed your family for a long period of time while likey not being able to work due to all the time needed to rebuild and recover. You would have to have a place for you and your family to live in the meantime which would either be renting a home, staying with family or buying a whole new home altogether. Again, think about all those hurricane refugees. Many of them have nothing to go back to...and the poorer ones had very little besides the roof over their head to begin with.
 
Oh, give me a break. I won't like to lose my house but you are just posturing.

I would give my house a 1000 times over if I get my wife and kid to safety. Anybody who doesn't see that is an idiot, to be blunt.

Also, you did play the race card and posture. Tough if you don't buy it.

I'm a psychologist (prof) and I understand hidden motivations, Doug and for our readers, you have a consistent tendency not to evaluate the best outcome of situations but continually go for a gun based solution even if it is clearly not in your best interest. You need to work on this. I hate to be harsh but that's what I read. I see you wanting to be the hero that organizes the neighborhood against the 'poor' and 'oppressed'.

In your scenario, if I have 30 minutes to get out of the way of a major riot with unknown numbers and weaponery - while I do have significant firearms - I'm gone.

If I knew that fleeing was dangerous and I had sufficient time for a realistic defense - not a fantasy - I might like the Korean merchants defend my property. Your scenario is a get out of Dodge one - unless fleeing is more risky to my life.

Do you have children? Name for me one physical position that is worth a child. I went through a significant life threatener last year with my daughter. If you told me, I could gurantee her life by burning my house to the ground - give me the matches. If Satan told me to put you inside when it burned, I would have done that.

Now, I'm faced with a mob but I could get her and the wife to safety. NO, I'm going to stay there and fight it out for the couch and my computer. What pure stupidity.

BTW, you can backup your computer externally and off site. You can buy a new Dell for $399.
 
I know a good criminal defense lawyer who charges about $100K for a murder defense. Add to that your investigator, court and witness fees, travel expenses, even photocopying charges, plus your lost time from work, and an acquittal in a trial might run you almost $200,000. Seems someone needs to put up their house when there is going to be a murder trial. Even if you win the murder case, you can still get a conviction for brandishing a weapon, discharging a firearm within 500 feet of a dwelling (NYS Law) or something that that, and live with a violent crime on your record. In my case, an arrest (no a conviction) for a crime must be reported to my employer and I can be fired. That has a cost too.

Forget civil suits afterwards, you might get sued or your might not. Some people win, some don't.

I don't want to shoot anyone. Some people either want to, or don't care whether they take a life. Fine, don't let it bother you. Just remember, that if you do, you run the risk of a prosecutor making you spend everything in your savings, including the value of your house, to win an acquittal. You want to risk losing your home and your savings for some property that's insured or for $100 in your wallet?

I won't risk everything I have for a few bucks and a credit card I can cancel in 15 minutes. I won't risk everything for a house that's insured or some old pictures. Sorry to say, I won't even risk everything to save a stranger I think might be getting held up (but might be getting arrested).
 
No internet commando here ... if there's a massive civil disturbance and escape is possible, I'm gone.

The point was made that one's possessions were not worth dying for. I wholeheartedly agree. I would add, at risk of becoming flameworthy, that nothing I own is worth killing for, either, even if that means it's gone and the insurance isn't going to cover it. If forced into a position of defense, it's not going to be because I'm defending my TV, or guns, or whatever. I'm not taking human life over property, period.

When people talk about sitting on their roof with their deer rifle, they start to sound like they're acting offensively rather than defensively.
 
Riot like a hurricane

You know, a riot's like a hurricane. You think you can stick it out, that your plans are solid, that you are prepared for everything. Then it turns out you're not, but by then its too late.
 
Assuming we can't get out, and given my location on an isthmus that may be true, we stand and fight. I do NOT hand over guns to others. I don't know any of my neighbors well enough to trust with a loaded gun behind me, especially if they have not taken the time to get one of their own and learn how to use it.

Both ends of the street will have a large wood sign painted "Armed Citizens Present. Rioters Will Be Shot!" with a nice pattern of 12 gague 00 in it for emphasis. Given the population density where I am I doubt even one or two officers would be able to make it to our block if the balloon went up.

Plain and simlpe, riots are made up of cowards. These are people who could not do anything on their own and they depend on the mob for support. A concerted and willfull defense will drive them off to easier prey. That being said I really do not want them to come anywhere near my block and would rather not shoot anyone. Note though that as restrictive as NY gun laws and deadly force laws are there is one case where use of deadly force is clearly denoted as acceptable in NYS Penal Law. That is to prevent arson of an occupied dwelling.
 
Just like Blackwater, I remember the 92 riots and I lived a few blocks away from a Fat Tuesday Riot (which ironically is today) and a few other riots here in Philly. People who drove in the area were pulled from the cars and I will put this politely, those on foot not particpating in the riot were attacked. I hunkered down, loaded up (at the time I had a 30/30 and a 12 gauge defending a condo) and waited. I know for certain that if I tried to get to the car (on street parking so I would have to walk at least a block to my car and I did not have a handgun or a CCW) and drive out "something" might have happened. This is a Big reason why I moved to the burbs. Anyway you are more vunerable out of your home. Trust me, I am not going to fight to the death to save property that is insured, but if your trapped you better taking a defensive position in your home, then trying to move you and your family thru a rioting mob on foot or in a car.

+1 Mustketeer A simple "You Loot, We Shoot" sign should work wonders.
 
I agree with the leaving asap part. However, if this is not an option it's onto plan b. Sun-Tzu said:

"One who knows when he can fight, and when he cannot fight, will be victorious. One who, fully prepared, awaits the unprepared will be victorious."
-Art of War
 
For the record, I did not start the thread Jericho mentions. TheBluesMan took it upon himself to take a post of mine from an on going thread about hurricane Katrina and law enforcement (I think), and use it to start the discussion.
 
Hey Trip20 sorry I didnt mean to slam or offend you I was just comparing the reactions from the previous thread to this current one and I find it to be very interesting.
 
Jericho - just so ya know I didn't take offense in the least. Sorry if my last post sounded as if I did. :)

The thread you mentioned is not one that I would have started as the picture was more for humor than to justify any sort of action. I can't find the original thread in which I posted the picture, but it was more in context with the discussion that was going on at the time.

That's the only reason I made clarification. ;)
 
Glenn --

Great response!

Personally my truck is kinda like an escape capsule as it has a lot of tools and gear in it and believe me we woulod be loaded up and gone as a family --- yes one in a vehicle is vulnerable --- but not that vulnerable if you have a brain and know how to drive, a big truck makes it easier but is not essental. Anyone who choses to stay when exit is a good option for purely material items is a fool.

Orginize the neighborhood????? How will you account for your neighbors actions? Does that not seriously go down the road of inciting your own riot? YOU armend them, YOU told them of the threat --- then the shooting erupted. Who here wants to be responsible for the lead that one of their neighbors throws?

Seriously I pray this whole thread is a joke.

How many instances of house to house looting and burning are there in US history? Yes we have had riots, busnesses were looted, some burned and yes after natural disasters there has been looting, however the picture painted of returning to a pile of burned out rubble sounds awful melodramatic to me if we are talking about a residance --- they are 20 min away and you expect what your whole block will be burned? Even if you and your neighbors mount a good SWAT response your lead hose ant's no fire hose so if the block is burning you are screwed and now must evec with the riot there on your tail!

Do you not think that a lot of the suggestions for overt resistance would not make you a focal point for the rage of the rioters if it did come to that? In the end rioters will offten win out through greater number --- I can see it now --- the riot moving down the street causing moderate mayhem and damage to cars / yards and so forth, they come to a sign that says armed homeowner, a wise guy deciedes to try his luck, walks up pitching a fire bomb --- he gets droped, next thing the entire focus of the riot has become that one house, and sadly though you can all have fantasy time about how many you will drop I do not think you will win in the end likley your hose might be the only one compleatly destroyed.

No guys I think if you are at home and chose to stay there is a strong argument towards mantaining a low profile and only goign on the offensive if your hand is forced.
 
Orginize the neighborhood?????
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Yeah, but in all honesty the best time to do it would be after a disaster not just for a riot. post katrina left the gulf region with out many basic needs and criminal authority was one of them. when reentering my area after the immediate threat is over would i hand out my own weapons for use by others? No, but i think most of us feel that way unless they were really good friends or family. so i would try in a maner to do the following:

Create a kind of "Super" Neighborhood Watch, in which there would be a meeting to decide how to proceed. With as many neighbors or heads of housholds as could be present at the meeting create watches each day so those who are coming and going belong there (you really underestimate the power of old people sitting in lawn chairs in their open garage) and to prevent any theft or property destruction that may occur.
The simple fact that a criminal knows people are watching will be deterent enough. These watches can slowly cruise up an down the street every hour or so observing people. Or if you live in a culdesac they could simply sit on a lawn out in the open on a corner or something. night and day. But the key here is to have open communication with your neighbors and if something does happen you can call the authorities with multiple witnesses. Plus this is why cops always support deterence to reaction (less paperwork).

If open carry is allowed then open carry, but the idea is to be as lawful as possible with out giving the criminals an edge.
 
Oh, give me a break. I won't like to lose my house but you are just posturing.

I would give my house a 1000 times over if I get my wife and kid to safety. Anybody who doesn't see that is an idiot, to be blunt.

Also, you did play the race card and posture. Tough if you don't buy it.

I'm a psychologist (prof) and I understand hidden motivations, Doug and for our readers, you have a consistent tendency not to evaluate the best outcome of situations but continually go for a gun based solution even if it is clearly not in your best interest. You need to work on this. I hate to be harsh but that's what I read. I see you wanting to be the hero that organizes the neighborhood against the 'poor' and 'oppressed'.

In your scenario, if I have 30 minutes to get out of the way of a major riot with unknown numbers and weaponery - while I do have significant firearms - I'm gone.

If I knew that fleeing was dangerous and I had sufficient time for a realistic defense - not a fantasy - I might like the Korean merchants defend my property. Your scenario is a get out of Dodge one - unless fleeing is more risky to my life.

Do you have children? Name for me one physical position that is worth a child. I went through a significant life threatener last year with my daughter. If you told me, I could gurantee her life by burning my house to the ground - give me the matches. If Satan told me to put you inside when it burned, I would have done that.

Now, I'm faced with a mob but I could get her and the wife to safety. NO, I'm going to stay there and fight it out for the couch and my computer. What pure stupidity.

BTW, you can backup your computer externally and off site. You can buy a new Dell for $399.
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Hmm, name calling and psychoanalyzing "you really mean what I say you mean."
You started playing the race card, not me.
Perhaps you area well to do Bill Gates who could lose 10 houses 10 times over and not be affected by it but not everyone is that fortunate.
It's not a question of my family or my house. They all go together, they are all part of my life and theirs. Yes, family safety is a priority, but so is the roof over their head and the food on the table which contributes to their health and safety.

The rest of you who raise concern about legal and criminal charges: The major difference between what I am discussing in original post and what you fear is my senario is DEFENSIVE and what you are talking about is going on the OFFENSIVE. Big difference. Neighbors are gathering and fortifying a specific spot and DEFENDING it (and working with police when and if they come around to aid), not going out and around town looking for rioters to shoot down.
 
I think people are still missing the point here. Ask anyone who has been in or near a riot if they think its a good idea to leave the house while the riot is occuring. I am saying I would stay home and defend it because I believe its safer, and as a secondary reason to protect my things. If I had equal chances either way I would stay home for that reason. No one wants to get killed over replaceable objects.
 
Get in front of the crowd and chant "ImHoTep, ImHoTep".....Worked in "The Mummy".....
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LOL!!! Or just get in your car and plow through them....it also worked in "The Mummy":p

I think people are still missing the point here. Ask anyone who has been in or near a riot if they think its a good idea to leave the house while the riot is occuring. I am saying I would stay home and defend it because I believe its safer, and as a secondary reason to protect my things. If I had equal chances either way I would stay home for that reason. No one wants to get killed over replaceable objects.
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That's very true
 
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