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Pulled over while carrying
- Thread starter Vermonter
- Start date
The basis for the suit would be what? If you were arrested and you were carrying legal that would be cause for a suit. If you were injured that would be cause. You may, MAY have cause for an official complaint or suit if the exact circumstances did not warrant getting placed on the ground. Good luck with that one. You would have nothing at all to go on regarding having the cop hold you at gun point for some period of time until the situation is made clear and safe. I can't imagine it would not involve getting you out of the vehicle.
The legal standard for the actual use of deadly force, that is actually perforating you with one or more bullets, is means/opportunity/intent. If the guy has no idea you have a gun and you reach for anything near it how is he to know you are not reaching for the pistol? This action would be just plain foolish. You have now met the bar for MEANS you clearly have a deadly weapon. You have met the bar for OPPORTUNITY, you are reaching for it (he can't possibly be a mind reader). You have not yet SAID you are going to use it, but it could be argued that reaching for it does display the intent to use it.
At any rate, any reasonable cop is going to absolutely stop further action on your part. Again, given those circumstances, the suit is a no starter. Reaching toward a weapon during a traffic stop is a ridiculous thing to do.
The legal standard for the actual use of deadly force, that is actually perforating you with one or more bullets, is means/opportunity/intent. If the guy has no idea you have a gun and you reach for anything near it how is he to know you are not reaching for the pistol? This action would be just plain foolish. You have now met the bar for MEANS you clearly have a deadly weapon. You have met the bar for OPPORTUNITY, you are reaching for it (he can't possibly be a mind reader). You have not yet SAID you are going to use it, but it could be argued that reaching for it does display the intent to use it.
At any rate, any reasonable cop is going to absolutely stop further action on your part. Again, given those circumstances, the suit is a no starter. Reaching toward a weapon during a traffic stop is a ridiculous thing to do.
secret_agent_man
Moderator
I think some folks are seeking some type of confrontation.
They're just interested in knowing the limits on police via the Fourth Amendment during vehicle stops in which they, the "stopee", have a gun. That's reasonable enough.
???
"Just with the level of respect we would all want." is all the respect I am giving a king ...... they did not earn that title, so it's meaningless to me. The newest deputy in our county at the very least has LE credentials.....
We shouldnt treat an LEO as a king,........ Just with the level of respect we would all want.
"Just with the level of respect we would all want." is all the respect I am giving a king ...... they did not earn that title, so it's meaningless to me. The newest deputy in our county at the very least has LE credentials.....
We Americans are naturally suspicious of authority. That's who we are. So, If I'm carrying and get pulled over, it's a crapshoot, in this state, whether I get a professional or some tool who will "put a gun in my ear." If I keep my mouth shut, as is my right unless directly questioned, then chances are great that no one will be getting road dust on their clothes or gun grease in their ears.
The basis for the suit would be what?
Police brutality perhaps? Use of excessive force? I am sure my lawyer would come up with something that would stick.
I still dont understand what the gun has to do with you being stopped for a traffic violation. Was the gun somehow a part of it? Was it the reason for it?
Another thing I dont get, is why would you be reaching for "anything" with the cop there. Dont you already have your paperwork in hand when he gets to the window? I know I always do. Not that Im doing anything wrong, but the last thing I want to do, is visibly offer up anything else than necessary for the business at hand. Whats in the glove box or console (or whole car for that matter) is my business, none of his. Unless of course, I make it his, by "unnecessarily" letting him see something unrelated to the matter at hand, that might draw interest. Why turn "nothing", into something else?
Since many seem to be so concerned about weapons and I guess the cops safety, do you also offer up your pocket knives, any pointy tools, impact type "weapons", ect, in the car or on your person? Arent they just as scary and dangerous?
I get the impression from some of the responses, this is more about showing the cop (or anyone else) you are a "big boy" too, and are "allowed" to have a gun, than it is about anything else. If youre not required to tell them, then its none of their business, unless they, or you, make it otherwise. At that point, you have to deal with it, not before.
Another thing I dont get, is why would you be reaching for "anything" with the cop there. Dont you already have your paperwork in hand when he gets to the window? I know I always do. Not that Im doing anything wrong, but the last thing I want to do, is visibly offer up anything else than necessary for the business at hand. Whats in the glove box or console (or whole car for that matter) is my business, none of his. Unless of course, I make it his, by "unnecessarily" letting him see something unrelated to the matter at hand, that might draw interest. Why turn "nothing", into something else?
Since many seem to be so concerned about weapons and I guess the cops safety, do you also offer up your pocket knives, any pointy tools, impact type "weapons", ect, in the car or on your person? Arent they just as scary and dangerous?
I get the impression from some of the responses, this is more about showing the cop (or anyone else) you are a "big boy" too, and are "allowed" to have a gun, than it is about anything else. If youre not required to tell them, then its none of their business, unless they, or you, make it otherwise. At that point, you have to deal with it, not before.
And when you finally find out that I am legally carrying, don't be surprised when you and your department wind up facing a lawsuit
Law suit for what? Having a gun pulled on you?
Being yanked out of my car and "proned out with a gun jammed in my ear" while legally transporting a weapon would certainly be grounds enough.
Maybe, maybe not. My opinion. Now with all this chest pounding going on about unneeded info to LE and rights and I'm going to sue, it would just be easier to inform whether its the law or not just so everyone is on the same page and prevent the above quote. You folks can pound your chest and rant about rights and info, I
I'll just inform LE if stopped. My choice.
(by AK103K): Dont you already have your paperwork in hand when he gets to the window?
I've been wondering the same thing. When I get pulled over I have my license(s) in my hand and hands on the wheel with window rolled down before the officer gets to my door. BUT admittedly in Texas it's a little easier. I don't have to show insurance or registration because the officer looks it all up based on your license. I've had officer's tell me they don't need my insurance. Admittedly there's about a 3 second instance where the officer may see me "reach for something in my back pocket", but it's doubtful since I usually have it out of my back pocket before we're done coming to a stop.
It's also the reason why I hand them both licenses. In Texas it's required to inform, but there's no penalty to not do so. BUT when they run your license it will come back CCW and then you get to have the "well why didn't you inform, where is your gun, why are you trying to hide things etc..." conversation which I'll happily pass on.
spacecoast
New member
I get the impression from some of the responses, this is more about showing the cop (or anyone else) you are a "big boy" too, and are "allowed" to have a gun, than it is about anything else.
I'm getting the same impression as well. Or maybe it's just that people are too lazy to check the law, even though it's simple to do so. As I said much earlier in the thread, I don't believe the officers' concerns (or problem children) are the folks who carry and are licensed to do so, and I seriously doubt that a decision to ticket or warn is influenced by the CCW license. So if I'm not required to inform, I won't. My choice.
You folks can pound your chest
I would point out that it was the 'don't be surprised to be yanked from the car and a gun stuck yer ear' remark that was the chest pounding...
aarondhgraham
New member
+1 for Skadoosh,,,
Not the right attitude for a public servant,,,
We citizens are not there to be "proned" for his pleasure.
The fact that he used those words in that type of statement,,,
Tells me he has the wrong attitude for the public trust.
Aarond
I would point out that it was the 'don't be surprised to be yanked from the car and a gun stuck yer ear' remark that was the chest pounding...
Not the right attitude for a public servant,,,
We citizens are not there to be "proned" for his pleasure.
The fact that he used those words in that type of statement,,,
Tells me he has the wrong attitude for the public trust.
Aarond
spacecoast, ak103k, et al... do what you want. As you say, it's your option.
As far as the "big boy" thing goes, give me a break.
My CCW instructor for my first license, in Florida, recommended presenting the officer with DL and CCW, even though it isn't "required" in Florida.
LEO friends of mine have recommended the same.
Massad Ayoob recommends the same. (Told me so in person, in his class.)
So, while there may be some out there who are getting their big boy jollies, I'm just following the advice given me by people whose opinions I respect. So far, it has worked quite well, in my experience and in the experiences of those I know.
YMMV. But cut the BS psychological evaluations, thanks.
As far as the "big boy" thing goes, give me a break.
My CCW instructor for my first license, in Florida, recommended presenting the officer with DL and CCW, even though it isn't "required" in Florida.
LEO friends of mine have recommended the same.
Massad Ayoob recommends the same. (Told me so in person, in his class.)
So, while there may be some out there who are getting their big boy jollies, I'm just following the advice given me by people whose opinions I respect. So far, it has worked quite well, in my experience and in the experiences of those I know.
YMMV. But cut the BS psychological evaluations, thanks.
i dont tell them i have a gun, but i also have my licence, registration, insurance card all ready for them when they walk up. If asked to get out of the car for a search would tell them, "Im carring a,legally, consealed weapon and there are a few knives in the car, i have a emergency diabetis kit in the glove box, blah blah.." but i believe they have to ask before doing a pat down anyway.
i imagine that if its a normal traffic violation type stop ie your not running from the cops or driving eratically as to avoid the cop or whatever... that the cop may or may not see a person going through the motions of getting his documents ready so would think "oh he is getting his papers, or farting, or whatever..."
i highly doubt that most cops think "OH CRAP HE IS MOVING AROUND OBVIASLY HE IS GRABBING A GUN!!"
i imagine that if its a normal traffic violation type stop ie your not running from the cops or driving eratically as to avoid the cop or whatever... that the cop may or may not see a person going through the motions of getting his documents ready so would think "oh he is getting his papers, or farting, or whatever..."
i highly doubt that most cops think "OH CRAP HE IS MOVING AROUND OBVIASLY HE IS GRABBING A GUN!!"
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secret_agent_man
Moderator
Is that behavior within the scope of a Terry stop? No
Then you are conducting an illegal search. Any evidence of illegal activity subsequently found cannon be used against the motorist so stopped. You may be able to make this kind of stop all day and all night, proning people out with guns in their ears, but you will never get a conviction that will stand. What's the use?
Well, gentlemen.. I'm going to have to play devil's advocate here.
I would agree with wagonman. He's NOT talking about searching someone's car, NOT talking about walking up and yanking someone out of their car without reason, he IS talking about HIS situational awareness and the surprise introduction of a gun into the scenario...
Sadly most people now a days if NOT restrained would get into a "let me explain, it's my right, I'll get you fired " argument with a gun drawn on them and reach for a license or make some other move that would lead to a more tragic event.
If a person did not disclose your CC-License, and more importantly their possession of a weapon and while fumbling for insurance, registration, ect.. a gun happens to peep out, then yes, for the officers safety it is more important that the person is restrained until the situation can be assessed and clarified. That's why it would be easier to start at the point of notification and work forward than to end up on the ground and work it back.
His actions of pulling someone out of the car and detaining them would "seem reasonable" to me too until he can assess his safety and they safety of the individual.
I always present my DL and CCL, then I EXPECT any LEO to ask IF I am carrying. If he doesn't BEFORE I move my hands to reach for anything I make him aware that I am carrying and what it is I am reaching for.
I think of others safety but I put MY SAFETY First. Sounds a bit over done but I'm not taking the chance of a rookie leo panicking and the vet leo's appreciate it.
I would agree with wagonman. He's NOT talking about searching someone's car, NOT talking about walking up and yanking someone out of their car without reason, he IS talking about HIS situational awareness and the surprise introduction of a gun into the scenario...
No but it is when I see a weapon that I don't know about on a traffic stop.
Seems reasonable to me. I wish everybody CCWed, let's just be adult about it.
Sadly most people now a days if NOT restrained would get into a "let me explain, it's my right, I'll get you fired " argument with a gun drawn on them and reach for a license or make some other move that would lead to a more tragic event.
If a person did not disclose your CC-License, and more importantly their possession of a weapon and while fumbling for insurance, registration, ect.. a gun happens to peep out, then yes, for the officers safety it is more important that the person is restrained until the situation can be assessed and clarified. That's why it would be easier to start at the point of notification and work forward than to end up on the ground and work it back.
His actions of pulling someone out of the car and detaining them would "seem reasonable" to me too until he can assess his safety and they safety of the individual.
I always present my DL and CCL, then I EXPECT any LEO to ask IF I am carrying. If he doesn't BEFORE I move my hands to reach for anything I make him aware that I am carrying and what it is I am reaching for.
I think of others safety but I put MY SAFETY First. Sounds a bit over done but I'm not taking the chance of a rookie leo panicking and the vet leo's appreciate it.
It's pretty much a certified good guy card.
This.^