If more attention was paid to the local and state governments by the people living in those localities, and who is being put into the positions of authority, you wouldn't be asking those questions. I'm speaking in the broad sense of maintaining and using your rights to affect the changes you want. You obviously don't like the way things are being run right now, so do your part to change that. That's what I mean by exercising your right to end the searches (or anything for that matter). It's to late to expect immediate changes because the population haven't been paying close enough attention to what’s going on around them. The ones really at fault are all of us, you and me. Everyone wants to pass off responsibilities to everyone else. The ones "piddling on the Flag" are the one's complaining, and taking no action. Do you vote in any elections? Do you participate in your community? Do you personally initiate any action for changes you want to see? If you can't answer those questions, then you’re not doing your part as an American.
Police to Check Bags on NYC Subways ... 4th amendment anyone?
- Thread starter BerettaCougar
- Start date
So, let me get this straight.
These searches are random, yet voluntary. If I decide I don't want to be searched, all I have to do is turn around and leave. Yet if I leave, I have then provided probable cause to have me detained and searched anyway? Afterall, If I have nothing to hide, why not submit to the voluntary search to begin with?!
Nice catch 22 you have setup Frank. I can submit to the search now, or later, after I have declined to be searched voluntarily.
The keyword here is, I think, submit.
Oh and Frank, I do have a right and expectation of privacy while I am out in the public sphere. It's just not as great an expectation as I would have if in my own home.
The difference between an individual taping me and the Government taping me is in the definition of those two words. An individual can tape/photograph/film the happenings in the public sphere. Incidental to that, if a crime occurs and is caught on tape, such evidence is generally admissible. The Government on the other hand, is taping for the specific purpose of catching crime in the act. This therefore renders all subjected to the taping as suspects before a crime has happened. It is surveillance and renders the public guilty before the fact and requires a warrant (Berger v. New York, 388 US 41 (1967) and Katz v. United States, 389 US 347 (1967) and United States v. United States District Court, 407 U.S. 297 (1972)).
These searches are random, yet voluntary. If I decide I don't want to be searched, all I have to do is turn around and leave. Yet if I leave, I have then provided probable cause to have me detained and searched anyway? Afterall, If I have nothing to hide, why not submit to the voluntary search to begin with?!
Nice catch 22 you have setup Frank. I can submit to the search now, or later, after I have declined to be searched voluntarily.
The keyword here is, I think, submit.
Oh and Frank, I do have a right and expectation of privacy while I am out in the public sphere. It's just not as great an expectation as I would have if in my own home.
The difference between an individual taping me and the Government taping me is in the definition of those two words. An individual can tape/photograph/film the happenings in the public sphere. Incidental to that, if a crime occurs and is caught on tape, such evidence is generally admissible. The Government on the other hand, is taping for the specific purpose of catching crime in the act. This therefore renders all subjected to the taping as suspects before a crime has happened. It is surveillance and renders the public guilty before the fact and requires a warrant (Berger v. New York, 388 US 41 (1967) and Katz v. United States, 389 US 347 (1967) and United States v. United States District Court, 407 U.S. 297 (1972)).
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Butch-Butch50 said:
With all due respect, you apparently would be happy to allow the terrorists absolute free entry into the subway system, so long as the taxpayers shell out $100 Million per year in overtime pay for a program that cannot possibly stop even one terrorist with an IQ above the temperature of freezing.
You, apparently, wish to see the cops in the NYPD (those that survive an attack) the laughing stock of the world if a single terrorist takes up this absurd challenge. Doncha get it?....the program is not a deterrent; it's a major propaganda opportunity for the Other Side!
The bleat of "we have to do something", regardless of effectiveness, regardless of cost to American freedoms, is deafening in here.
Rich
Yes Rich, but something is better than nothing, right? Besides, we must do it for the children. Think of the children. If it'll only save one life.
(just kidding)
I was actually quite pleasantly surprised today when I saw Philadelphia Mayor John Street (a liberal among liberals) state that there would be no such random searches on Philly's SEPTA mass transit system. Apparently even some liberals understand the implications and potential for abuse here.
FrankDrebin
Moderator
Did I say that the police would have reasonable suspicion to stop the people they saw leaving? No, I didn't, did I? They would have their pictures.
As I said before, when in public, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy with regard to your physical appearance. Z-E-R-O. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but in Katz, the government bugged a pay phone that Katz was known to use. A payphone where the average person would not be able to hear Katz. Katz had a reasonable expectation of privacy in his payphone conversation. It had nothing to do with anyone LOOKING at him while he was at the payphone, because anyone in the area could have seen him. The government can't put a camera in a toilet stall because you have an expectation of privacy there because you're not expose to public view. Outside the stall in the bathroom is fair game though, and it's surely allowable to take a picture of you anywhere else you are in public, because you have no reasonable expectation of privacy in your physical appearance while out in public.
As far as your rights to privacy in your physical characteristics, the police don't even have to get a warrant to draw your blood if they have probable cause to believe you were driving drunk. You don't even have a right to privacy in the chemical makeup of your blood. It's a physical characteristic. Now, if you had a bullet in you that required surgery to remove, then the police would have to get a warrant and probably some other kind of court order because of the invasiveness needed to get the bullet, but a simple blood draw isn't that invasive. Nor is the big G's eye in the sky taking a picture of your mug as you leave the train station. They're wwaaaaaaaaaaaaaatching youuuuuuuuuuu....
mooreshawnm
New member
So they would have their pictures huh? Why? I'll tell you I thank God I don't live in NY. No way in heck would I allow anyone to search my bags! Never. So would you take my picture and put my name on a list? Some reward for fighting the enemy for a year on his home turf!
Seriously guys does the bill of rights mean nothing to you? I am getting sick and tired of seeing our God given rights slowly but steadily decline. Just re-reading the IVth and I don't see a difference between person, effects or home. Does this mean that houses can be randomly searched? If not now why not and what guarantee(sp...lazy) do I have that that will never be the case? And if it comes to that point I'm telling you right now...better come to my house first.
I say again I fought the enemy, I'll be damned if I allow my own government to treat me as a suspect! As for these stupid searches doing anything here's a tale for you. About 30 tankers were flying out of Seatac to Colorado Springs for MOS training. We were on orders and obviously military. they chose three of our group for random checks...finnaly we convinced them that we were exempt because we were traveling under orders. Seriously do you think these checks will be any different. How many bombs have been found due to screening since 9/11? Balance that with how many people have missed flights and the economic effect that has to say nothing of the illegality of the search and I believe you will have some idea what I am talking about.
And as far as the 'Don't have anything to hide and you don't have to worry about it' line. Oh my God are you serious? That sounds like something right out of a totalitarian state handbook!
Shawn
Seriously guys does the bill of rights mean nothing to you? I am getting sick and tired of seeing our God given rights slowly but steadily decline. Just re-reading the IVth and I don't see a difference between person, effects or home. Does this mean that houses can be randomly searched? If not now why not and what guarantee(sp...lazy) do I have that that will never be the case? And if it comes to that point I'm telling you right now...better come to my house first.
I say again I fought the enemy, I'll be damned if I allow my own government to treat me as a suspect! As for these stupid searches doing anything here's a tale for you. About 30 tankers were flying out of Seatac to Colorado Springs for MOS training. We were on orders and obviously military. they chose three of our group for random checks...finnaly we convinced them that we were exempt because we were traveling under orders. Seriously do you think these checks will be any different. How many bombs have been found due to screening since 9/11? Balance that with how many people have missed flights and the economic effect that has to say nothing of the illegality of the search and I believe you will have some idea what I am talking about.
And as far as the 'Don't have anything to hide and you don't have to worry about it' line. Oh my God are you serious? That sounds like something right out of a totalitarian state handbook!
Shawn
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Shawn-
Welcome to TFL, but most important, THANK YOU for doing what most of us have not had the opportunity and/or grit to do.
Know that you're owed. Know that what is happening in New York right now is NOT what you were fighting for. Not as far as most of us are concerened.
Rich
Welcome to TFL, but most important, THANK YOU for doing what most of us have not had the opportunity and/or grit to do.
Know that you're owed. Know that what is happening in New York right now is NOT what you were fighting for. Not as far as most of us are concerened.
Rich
FrankDrebin
Moderator
Are you implying you have more constitutional rights because you fought in Iraq? I appreciate your service, but I believe Tim McVeigh served in Iraq also. He not only fought the enemy (or at least was overseas when the enemy was being fought), he WAS the enemy. Was the cop who broke the whole OKC bombing supposed to let him go without ID'ing or ticketing him when he pulled him over for a bad license plate, or not "treat him as a suspect" because he was a Gulf War vet? What about the Muslim nutjob in the 101st ABD who fragged his fellow soldiers overseas? Can we treat him as a suspect? I'm certainly not comparing you to those two, but you don't have any more right to be exempt from scrutiny than the rest of us because you fought in Iraq.
You don't HAVE to let them search your bags. You just don't take the train. You think you have an expectation of privacy in what you put on public display? Why would they take pictures???? I believe the only leads the Brits had, and what was responsible for their speedy ID of the bombers was the pictures they took, in a public place, of people who looked out of place for one reason or another.
Did you search, or see any Iraqis searched while you were over there, without probable cause to believe they were armed or had any bombs on them? If so, and you believe that your constitutional rights are God-given, as opposed to granted by the government, how do you justify those searches?
How many terrorist attacks have we suffered since the increased government scrutiny?
The way I understand the case law, you have a greater expectation of privacy in your house as opposed to your bags when you're out at the train station. Also, I believe searching people at train stations is more reasonable than searching peoples' houses when you're responding to a bombing of a train station. Also, there are plenty of exceptions to the search warrant rule where the police may search your house without a warrant. As far as you being "treated like a suspect", if the police were looking for a kidnapped child and going door to door asking the residents to submit to a search of their houses for the missing kid, would you let them search your house, or would you make them waste valuable time and resources eliminating you as a suspect when time was of the essense to find the kid?
You don't HAVE to let them search your bags. You just don't take the train. You think you have an expectation of privacy in what you put on public display? Why would they take pictures???? I believe the only leads the Brits had, and what was responsible for their speedy ID of the bombers was the pictures they took, in a public place, of people who looked out of place for one reason or another.
Did you search, or see any Iraqis searched while you were over there, without probable cause to believe they were armed or had any bombs on them? If so, and you believe that your constitutional rights are God-given, as opposed to granted by the government, how do you justify those searches?
How many terrorist attacks have we suffered since the increased government scrutiny?
The way I understand the case law, you have a greater expectation of privacy in your house as opposed to your bags when you're out at the train station. Also, I believe searching people at train stations is more reasonable than searching peoples' houses when you're responding to a bombing of a train station. Also, there are plenty of exceptions to the search warrant rule where the police may search your house without a warrant. As far as you being "treated like a suspect", if the police were looking for a kidnapped child and going door to door asking the residents to submit to a search of their houses for the missing kid, would you let them search your house, or would you make them waste valuable time and resources eliminating you as a suspect when time was of the essense to find the kid?
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Do Something!
Frank, I have read many of your posts and find that I agree with almost everything you say. Unfortunately there are those who read but do not care to let logic get in the way of their opinions. Personally, I have always been intrigued by those that see 4th Amendment violations in every shadow but totally ignore real violations of the 1st, 2nd, 5th, 9th & 10th. The original posting was merely a troll post to get some people's shorts in a wad. I don't live there, don't ride their subways BUT MY LOVELY DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AND PRECIOUS GRANDCHILDREN DO. So those of you safely away, comfortable in your armchair at home can rant and rave all you wish. I want something done to protect my family! AND I WANT IT DONE NOW. Refine the concept as you go.
And, apparently, unlike many (most?) of those posting to this thread, I actually have responsibility for the protection of four facilities and 1000 people around the country. Random searches are done to deter, not catch those who would murder innocent people. Will they really work? Maybe, maybe not but nothing YOU have said is any better given the time taken to make it happen. And, just being in a different car underground will not keep you safe so CONDUCT THE SEARCHES! Want to argue the search? Come to one of my facilities and you will empty your pockets, go through a metal detector and present identification. Don't want to do that? THEN STAY OUT!!! Want to argue your "rights"? Try me.
When I was hired I began doing criminal record checks on applicants. I was told that this was a violation of the "rights" of applicants, I won this battle. Shortly after that I began drug testing and again was told that I was violating the "rights" of employees, I won that battle. When I bought the metal detector I was told that the employees would be upset and would complain. Guess what, the only comments I heard were, 'It's about time."
Most people who are subject to reasonable searches and have nothing to hide do not object. They understand. If you don't then stay home.
This is not some parlor game this is a war. So unless you have a Hel- of a lot more training in combating unconventional warefare that those conducting it drink your beer and leave the battle to those that will fight it.
You wanted preaching? Well, the sermon is over. Don't like it? Find another church; kick me off the forum or get the Hel- out of the way and let the people who have the responsibility do their jobs.
Don't cloud the issue with BS about this or that. Either be part of the solution or you are part of the problem. Want to challenge this idea, put your credentials on the table and we'll see who comes out on top.
John
Charlotte, NC
It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness.
Frank, I have read many of your posts and find that I agree with almost everything you say. Unfortunately there are those who read but do not care to let logic get in the way of their opinions. Personally, I have always been intrigued by those that see 4th Amendment violations in every shadow but totally ignore real violations of the 1st, 2nd, 5th, 9th & 10th. The original posting was merely a troll post to get some people's shorts in a wad. I don't live there, don't ride their subways BUT MY LOVELY DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AND PRECIOUS GRANDCHILDREN DO. So those of you safely away, comfortable in your armchair at home can rant and rave all you wish. I want something done to protect my family! AND I WANT IT DONE NOW. Refine the concept as you go.
And, apparently, unlike many (most?) of those posting to this thread, I actually have responsibility for the protection of four facilities and 1000 people around the country. Random searches are done to deter, not catch those who would murder innocent people. Will they really work? Maybe, maybe not but nothing YOU have said is any better given the time taken to make it happen. And, just being in a different car underground will not keep you safe so CONDUCT THE SEARCHES! Want to argue the search? Come to one of my facilities and you will empty your pockets, go through a metal detector and present identification. Don't want to do that? THEN STAY OUT!!! Want to argue your "rights"? Try me.
When I was hired I began doing criminal record checks on applicants. I was told that this was a violation of the "rights" of applicants, I won this battle. Shortly after that I began drug testing and again was told that I was violating the "rights" of employees, I won that battle. When I bought the metal detector I was told that the employees would be upset and would complain. Guess what, the only comments I heard were, 'It's about time."
Most people who are subject to reasonable searches and have nothing to hide do not object. They understand. If you don't then stay home.
This is not some parlor game this is a war. So unless you have a Hel- of a lot more training in combating unconventional warefare that those conducting it drink your beer and leave the battle to those that will fight it.
You wanted preaching? Well, the sermon is over. Don't like it? Find another church; kick me off the forum or get the Hel- out of the way and let the people who have the responsibility do their jobs.
Don't cloud the issue with BS about this or that. Either be part of the solution or you are part of the problem. Want to challenge this idea, put your credentials on the table and we'll see who comes out on top.
John
Charlotte, NC
It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness.
FrankDrebin
Moderator
Thanks John.
mooreshawnm
New member
'So was Tim...'
Yeah I like that, so I am a suspect....probably not what you meant but thats the way I see it and it solidifies the case I have made in my mind! Kinda reminds me of the Soviet soldiers who liberated Nazi Germany and then weren't allowed to go home for a long time because they were suspect to! All that time spent in the decadent west!
You know I have been reading this forum for awhile and must say I love it. However I didn't post for a long time because I was afraid of ending up on some FBI list somewhere. Well, what the heck, I've had enough with the way this nation is heading and I refuse to stay silent out of fear of uncle sam any longer. Even those of you I don't agree with I still respect to no end because you care enough to actually discuss it, keep that in mind if I really irritate anyone badly.
As far as 'greater expectation of privacy in your house as opposed to your bags' I'll admit that I am no lawyer. I am just going by the BOR and there is NO degree system. I also know that nowhere does the BOR use the word privacy however I myself think that is implied in the 4th.
'Did you search, or see any Iraqis searched while you were over there, without probable cause to believe they were armed or had any bombs on them? ' What does that have to do with anything. They were forigners (SP again)and in no way protected by our BOR.
Shawn
More to follow just 'gotta grab a beer' before I respond to the next one.
Yeah I like that, so I am a suspect....probably not what you meant but thats the way I see it and it solidifies the case I have made in my mind! Kinda reminds me of the Soviet soldiers who liberated Nazi Germany and then weren't allowed to go home for a long time because they were suspect to! All that time spent in the decadent west!
You know I have been reading this forum for awhile and must say I love it. However I didn't post for a long time because I was afraid of ending up on some FBI list somewhere. Well, what the heck, I've had enough with the way this nation is heading and I refuse to stay silent out of fear of uncle sam any longer. Even those of you I don't agree with I still respect to no end because you care enough to actually discuss it, keep that in mind if I really irritate anyone badly.
As far as 'greater expectation of privacy in your house as opposed to your bags' I'll admit that I am no lawyer. I am just going by the BOR and there is NO degree system. I also know that nowhere does the BOR use the word privacy however I myself think that is implied in the 4th.
'Did you search, or see any Iraqis searched while you were over there, without probable cause to believe they were armed or had any bombs on them? ' What does that have to do with anything. They were forigners (SP again)and in no way protected by our BOR.
Shawn
More to follow just 'gotta grab a beer' before I respond to the next one.
FrankDrebin
Moderator
We're ALL suspects. What was that that Joe Friday once said in the Dragnet opening: "A man is shot to death. You're working homicide, it's 3:00 in the morning and you've got 3 million suspects to choose from." Something like that. That doesn't mean we don't have rights, but we don't have the right to not be scrutinized as a suspect if the government isn't violating the constitution. Say some person was the victim of a burglary. You live in the same apt. building but had nothing to do with it whatsoever. However, the person doesn't like the way you look and tells the cops he thinks you may have done it. You have absolutely no right whatsoever for the police to not look at you like you're a suspect as long as the cops don't cross the constitutional line while they're looking at you.
In your earlier post, you said your rights were God-given. I got into this argument before with someone who said the same thing. I said your rights were granted by the government. They said everying that the constitution guarantees you is "God-given". I don't want to get into that, but in your post you said "God-given". So....if they were God-given rights, who cares if the Iraqi's are foreigners? Did God give us rights but not them? If rights ARE God-given, how do you justify searching THEM with no probable cause or reasonable suspicion, while saying that American's can't be searched at the train station because it's a violation of their "God-given" rights??? I'm going to get a beer too...before I check my Ebay auction....
mooreshawnm
New member
First: Frank - I retract the God given part, it just sounded good 
sorry.
Now to John's comments. I will assume the 'leave it to those that will fight it' comment was for the rest of the disagreement people and not me. I do appreciate that you have family in a mtropolis area and NY at that. I understand that you are concerned, you should be. However I imagine that the odds are vastly greater that they would be hurt in a traffic accident or mugging (never been out of the air port in NYC just seen the movies!) The fact is the random searching will not stop this wave of bombings and when you calm down I am sure that you will realize that. We would check every one who came to our base in Mosul. And I mean everyone, tear their cars and person apart and make sure they had no contraband and had referances (sp., I know I suck). Needless to say 2 months after I left the mess hall, my mess hall, was destroyed with much loss of life. I am sure you guys remember hearing about that one back in December. Anyway that was with 100% screening. Enough Said on that.
As for leaving it to the experts...Are these the same experts who left the Boats tied up at Pearl, were surprised when the Chinese hordes come across the Yalu, had a secret plan for victory in Vietnam, knew the Marines were safe in Beruit, Kept us safe on 9/11, knew where the WMDs were when we invaded (trust me I was all in favor of it and still demand victory) and now are promising us victory in Iraq (the insurgency is in it's death throws remember). These are the same guys who outlawed certain weapons made overseas for our protection, decided they could confiscate our land if the price is right, here in Washington installed an unelected governor, blah blah blah....heck no I don't trust the powers that be, DO YOU? They most certainly have given me no reason to and besides so many of our founding fathers wanted us the distrust the gov, so as I see things I am looking at this the right way.
That being said I don't have anything personal; against either John or Frank, both are much better writers than I and probably not clouded by emotion like I am finding myself these days
As far as doing something....it's already been stated on this post...reform immigration, sealed borders except at official crossing points, checking ALL cargo coming into this country and of course staking out the mosques.
Shawn
sorry.Now to John's comments. I will assume the 'leave it to those that will fight it' comment was for the rest of the disagreement people and not me. I do appreciate that you have family in a mtropolis area and NY at that. I understand that you are concerned, you should be. However I imagine that the odds are vastly greater that they would be hurt in a traffic accident or mugging (never been out of the air port in NYC just seen the movies!) The fact is the random searching will not stop this wave of bombings and when you calm down I am sure that you will realize that. We would check every one who came to our base in Mosul. And I mean everyone, tear their cars and person apart and make sure they had no contraband and had referances (sp., I know I suck). Needless to say 2 months after I left the mess hall, my mess hall, was destroyed with much loss of life. I am sure you guys remember hearing about that one back in December. Anyway that was with 100% screening. Enough Said on that.
As for leaving it to the experts...Are these the same experts who left the Boats tied up at Pearl, were surprised when the Chinese hordes come across the Yalu, had a secret plan for victory in Vietnam, knew the Marines were safe in Beruit, Kept us safe on 9/11, knew where the WMDs were when we invaded (trust me I was all in favor of it and still demand victory) and now are promising us victory in Iraq (the insurgency is in it's death throws remember). These are the same guys who outlawed certain weapons made overseas for our protection, decided they could confiscate our land if the price is right, here in Washington installed an unelected governor, blah blah blah....heck no I don't trust the powers that be, DO YOU? They most certainly have given me no reason to and besides so many of our founding fathers wanted us the distrust the gov, so as I see things I am looking at this the right way.
That being said I don't have anything personal; against either John or Frank, both are much better writers than I and probably not clouded by emotion like I am finding myself these days
As far as doing something....it's already been stated on this post...reform immigration, sealed borders except at official crossing points, checking ALL cargo coming into this country and of course staking out the mosques.
Shawn
FrankDrebin
Moderator
yay...won my ebay auction.....after losing one earlier for the same book for half the price because I didn't hit the button in time....
I don't trust the government to protect me, but as long as they're not stepping over the line as established by decades and decades of case law, I don't have a problem with them trying. The only think I see that is unconstitutional about the searches was the randomness, and I think they made a reasonable effort to not make them random.
What are we looking for at the mosques?
I don't trust the government to protect me, but as long as they're not stepping over the line as established by decades and decades of case law, I don't have a problem with them trying. The only think I see that is unconstitutional about the searches was the randomness, and I think they made a reasonable effort to not make them random.
What are we looking for at the mosques?
I'll rant and rave all I want, but unlike you I DO live here in the belly of the beast - Hell's Kitchen. I work one block off the center of Times Square. I ride the subway almost everyday and I can tell you these searches are nothing more than window dressing and a complete waste of public funds. This is not a matter of public safety, and if you think these searches are going to protect your loved ones from another attack you need to wake up and face reality.
You may be ready to surrender your rights for the illusion of security, but don't think that those of us who see through this ineffectual smokescreen are so willing to give up on the ideals that guys like mooreshawnm have fought and died for.
Some time ago I took an oath to uphold the Constitution. There was no caviat limiting that to when it was convenient, comfortable, or safe. Freedom isn't free and it isn't always safe. You stated:
Yes, you want security (or an illusion thereof) at the potential expense of our 4th Amendment rights. Chuck Schumer would be so proud. Here's a concept for you to refine - Sara Brady wants the same thing at the expense of our 2nd Amendment rights. Safety at the expense of our rights. The founding fathers must be spinning in their graves.
So IOW, enjoy your rights, but don't actually try to exercise them.
Who do you think you are; the Wizard of Oz? ("Never mind the man behind the curtain…I am the great and powerful Oz.") Give me a friggin' break. In case you haven't been paying attention, that’s the problem. These random searches are not fighting anything or accomplishing anything - they only create the illusion of security. More feelgood nonsense to calm the sheeple who can't think for themselves. The only thing that is being accomplished is the waste of taxpayer dollars and the desensitization of the public to the further loss of our rights and liberties.
Baba Louie
New member
Electronic sniffing devices which work from afar.... Hmmmm.
http://www.sniffexsite.com/default.asp
http://www.implantsciences.com/cn/pr/2003/pr_03nov07.html
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/news/051205_nw_explosive_device.html
Between K9 explosive material sniffers and electronic "sniffers" I suppose one has some sort of chance of detecting some form of device... maybe.
Of course the NYPD are going to check bags, it's called proactive somethingorother... oh yeah... Policing
It makes everyone feel safe and happy. I mean why NOT check my bag? I'm not an Al-Q trained explosive suicidal type, I'VE GOT NOTHING TO HIDE.
Right?
Why worry about a Bill of Rights somethingorother, I've got to get to work? or home or somewhere else and I'm not the problem but I'm worried that someone else is (the problem) and I KNOW our dear Uncle Mayor or Uncle Sam would never mean any harm to come my way. I couldn't pay taxes or vote if I died.
Right?
So while everyone is getting their backpacks and briefcases checked down underground, four vehicles driven by some people from yet another mid-east nation, who now reside in NY and drive cabs for a living (or delivery trucks, etc), take it upon themselves to do something only their parents and Allah will appreciate in the name of martyrdom.
And NYC (or Madrid or Wash DC or any other number of towns) comes to a standstill yet again for a day or two. Crowds of ululating foreigners are filmed cheering in the streets, firing AK47's overhead...
sigh
Sometimes living in the Red country ain't such a bad thing methinks. Not a target rich environment like London or NYC or Las Vegas...
http://www.sniffexsite.com/default.asp
http://www.implantsciences.com/cn/pr/2003/pr_03nov07.html
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/news/051205_nw_explosive_device.html
Between K9 explosive material sniffers and electronic "sniffers" I suppose one has some sort of chance of detecting some form of device... maybe.
Of course the NYPD are going to check bags, it's called proactive somethingorother... oh yeah... Policing
It makes everyone feel safe and happy. I mean why NOT check my bag? I'm not an Al-Q trained explosive suicidal type, I'VE GOT NOTHING TO HIDE.
Right?
Why worry about a Bill of Rights somethingorother, I've got to get to work? or home or somewhere else and I'm not the problem but I'm worried that someone else is (the problem) and I KNOW our dear Uncle Mayor or Uncle Sam would never mean any harm to come my way. I couldn't pay taxes or vote if I died.
Right?
So while everyone is getting their backpacks and briefcases checked down underground, four vehicles driven by some people from yet another mid-east nation, who now reside in NY and drive cabs for a living (or delivery trucks, etc), take it upon themselves to do something only their parents and Allah will appreciate in the name of martyrdom.
And NYC (or Madrid or Wash DC or any other number of towns) comes to a standstill yet again for a day or two. Crowds of ululating foreigners are filmed cheering in the streets, firing AK47's overhead...
sigh
Sometimes living in the Red country ain't such a bad thing methinks. Not a target rich environment like London or NYC or Las Vegas...
FrankDrebin
Moderator
Between the people screaming that the police are doing too much stuff that doesn't work anyway, and the people who are crying that the police aren't doing ENOUGH stuff like DARE and "community policing" that doesn't work anyway.......it gets awefully confusing as to who the players all are sometimes...Makes me wanna ululate....."Loooloooolooooloooolooooloooolooooloooooo"
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Seems like we have a bit of a controversy here:
Side A: Those who believe .gov's Prime Directive should be to keep us safe at any cost.
Side B: Those who believe .gov should NEVER infringe RIGHTS that were a GIVEN of FREE MEN; Rights that were NEVER part of some sort of TRADE-OFF CONTRACT that might be negotiated back and forth.
Hmmmmm, I think I feel plenty safe enough already.
Oh, and Frank....one of the most Armchair Quarterbacked statements I've seen in 2005 is your claim that AMERICAN KIDS, after liberating a nation, should somehow be RESPONSIBLE for imposing OUR views of what "God-Given" should look like. Cheap shot, Frank. Unbelievably cheap.
This thread is about 2 posts from closure.
I make no claim to have carefully read all the posts on this discussion, however having viewed a few, and as I recall, having earlier contributed something at least slightly useful I hope, the following comes to mind.
The random searchs are simply a DOG AND PONY SHOW, and having grown up and lived for many years in NYC, I've lived through as well as seen a few of the genre produced there. I say this with reference to the large number of people who daily ride the NYC subways, and the obvious impossibility of "searching" any significant portion of the hand baggage carried throughout the system by passengers.
Cooperation from the riding public might be had, it might not be, the "random" searches might or might not be violative of constitutional guarantees. However the foregojng might turn out, it ramins that random searches, likely the only poossible searches are simply Dog And Pony Shows.
"Search" is one were to gpo that route, would have to have been done a long time before anyone got anywhere near the New York, or Boston or Philadelphia subway systems.
Control, effective control of the borders of this country would have to be established, and the way things seem to be going, that ain't going to happen, for neither this administration in particular nor the poloiticans in general have the guts and integrety to establish same, sad to note.
The random searchs are simply a DOG AND PONY SHOW, and having grown up and lived for many years in NYC, I've lived through as well as seen a few of the genre produced there. I say this with reference to the large number of people who daily ride the NYC subways, and the obvious impossibility of "searching" any significant portion of the hand baggage carried throughout the system by passengers.
Cooperation from the riding public might be had, it might not be, the "random" searches might or might not be violative of constitutional guarantees. However the foregojng might turn out, it ramins that random searches, likely the only poossible searches are simply Dog And Pony Shows.
"Search" is one were to gpo that route, would have to have been done a long time before anyone got anywhere near the New York, or Boston or Philadelphia subway systems.
Control, effective control of the borders of this country would have to be established, and the way things seem to be going, that ain't going to happen, for neither this administration in particular nor the poloiticans in general have the guts and integrety to establish same, sad to note.
FrankDrebin
"And now you will see on your left side ... " [everyone rushes to the left side of the tour bus]
There were no searches at train stations, shopping centers etc - even at the regional police headquarters where I lived for a total of sixteen years during the IRA campiagns - including mainland bombings - in over thrity years. No response to those bombings, and no one lost votes - or their jobs.
Doing just "something" is not better than nothing - it is deception. If the threat is truly what we are led to believe it is, there are some things that need to be addressed. If they are not, the whole thing is a facade. A lie.
This is absurd. If the "terrorists" have the mental faculties somewhat greater than primates they will not fall in line to be searched. A true "suicide bomber" though might pick the longest line to pull his ripcord. Most likely though the bombs will just be directed elsewhere.
"And now you will see on your left side ... " [everyone rushes to the left side of the tour bus]
Just what exactly is a "reasonable search"? "Anything the government decides is reasonable at the time"?