Police to Check Bags on NYC Subways ... 4th amendment anyone?

As I said, I don't see a conspiracy here or the police trying to hassle me or strip me of my rights, I see men and women valiantly doing their duty, even though they most likely hate it or disagree with it as much as we do. Or do you think all police are bad and out to take away your rights?
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I'll say it again, DT. NOBODY here is blaming the cops in those tunnels; rather the bureaucratic pogues who instituted this farce. Kindly cease the attempt to turn this into an LEO bash.
Rich
 
In TRUTH, that is hardly a Stalinist concept. Uncle Joe would never have promulgated PUBLIC SAFETY as the watchword of the repressive day. Uncle Joe was a tyrant and he certainly announced himself as such.....didn't he?
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I did not call you a Stalinist. That would be a personal attack. I made it clear that Uncle Joe used the exact same argument for repression as you do now. That's simple historical fact.
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Rich, at this point I think it is time to agree to disagree on this topic and go on to other topics. We have thoroughly looked over each other's positions and have each discovered that we have a basic and very fundamental difference of opinion on this subject. We could go on and on trying to persuade each other, but I am not the least bit persuaded by your arguments, and you are not the least bit persuaded by mine; and there doesn't appear to be any significant room for movement by either of us.

Then unfortunately you bring Stalin into this discussion. I find that regrettable. However you couch it, however you try to say differently, you have made this into something less than a civil discussion by that sad tacitc. If I was so inclined I would find reprehensible historical characters that have argued along the same lines as you to bring into this - but that is not something that I will do. It is nothing but a low red herring and has no place in this.

I expect that we would, in a civil discussion, find that we agree on far more than we disagree on. Hopefully the future will prove that out.
 
Butch-
Mostly well said. I apologize if you take exception to the use of the Stalin comparison. I would never compare Butch, the man, to Uncle Joe. But when I claim your arguments to be the same as his, I am either factually accurate or I'm not.

No matter. We have much to agree on in other areas.
Rich
 
what is important here is just how far this will go.

those who agree with the searches also indicate that they must remain within certain bounds to remain tolerable. those who disagree have already had their bounds exceeded.

we will find out how far because when you give them an inch they will try and take a mile, and everyone has boundaries.
 
In Vin Suprynowicz' new book, "The Black Arrow," set in the not-too-distant future, they have "portal" teams - police manning metal detectors and search stations at random sidewalks throughout the crumbling city.
 
Wasn't trying to LEO bash Rich. I have family that serve currently in armed forces and as LEO's, so I support them completely. Lets just agree to disagree and move on 'eh? ;)

As I said, I agree that the searches are most likely useless, and poorly thought out. I don't disagree on that. But each person being subjected to the search needs to make their own decision about wether or not they feel their rights are being violated. It is THEIR individual freedom, not yours or mine in question, and it is their right to give it up if they wish to. And I agree that people should do whatever they can to aid those who feel as if their rights were violated. If the sheep WANT to be led by sheep, who can stop them?

And if some of my replies have been a bit muddled lately, I reserve the right to blame it on these "WONDERFUL" painkillers they gave me to take home from the hospital. :p

Lets just wander to another subject....like zombies or something. :D
 
Not for long.....

"But each person being subjected to the search needs to make their own decision about wether or not they feel their rights are being violated. It is THEIR individual freedom, not yours or mine in question, and it is their right to give it up if they wish to."


And as soon as the mindless masses accept another derogation of OUR rights, yet another intrusion will be imposed upon us. It is not "THEIR" problem; it is OURS. And it hardly requires a crystal ball to grasp that concept. :eek:
 
Derius T wrote:
But each person being subjected to the search needs to make their own decision about wether or not they feel their rights are being violated. It is THEIR individual freedom, not yours or mine in question, and it is their right to give it up if they wish to.
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I have to say that this is the problem in a nutshell.

The Court has often used as a definition of "reasonable," what the public sees as reasonable. Is this a good indicator of what's reasonable, or is it simply the result of incrementalism?
 
There are two issues: what is the public willing to take, and what are the cops willing to enforce?

If someone allows a cop to violate their rights, and the cop willingly violates said rights, they are both responsible.
 
hello?

Okay, how about this instead...a compromise maybe...use police with sniffer dogs to patrol the subway. Search any bag which attracts the dog's attention, but only those bags. I dont know much about US law, but isnt that probable cause? Is that better?
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Really, is this too simple? People need to make a noise about random searches instead of whining to eachother. Use politicians for their intended purpose. If you cant, vote someone in who will represent their people. No one to vote for? Stand for election.
 
People need to make a noise about random searches instead of whining to eachother. Use politicians for their intended purpose. If you cant, vote someone in who will represent their people.
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The only way to vote the right people into office is by raising awareness of the problem. Forums like this are a great way to raise awareness.....perhaps the best way. Problem here is, what's "noise" to me is "whining" to you.

But that's why we have the First Amendment. Pretty cool, huh?
Rich
 
Yup, it sure is. However preaching to the converted here is not as effective as letters to senators, protests etc would be. If you dont stand up for your rights, they will be taken away.
 
Oh, I hardly think people here are "the converted". If they were, these threads would not go back and forth, nor occasionally heat up. Perfect place to have these discussions. YMMV.

As to political involvement, I think you'll find that more letters, phone calls and emails to CongressCritters are generated by TFL'ers than by a random selection of the population at large....probably by a factor of 10.
Rich
 
I hope that you are correct on both counts, and that TFL's US citizens safeguard and exercise their rights in the ways we've discussed. I have no idea how true your statement is, but having made my point, I will leave it there. ;)
 
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