Police to Check Bags on NYC Subways ... 4th amendment anyone?

So if you really want to do something unconstitutional, start searching only people that some civil servant profiles as a terrorist. What's a terrorist look like? For that matter, what does a Muslim look like? An Arab? Is it likely that in NYC a person "who engages in terrorism" is also likely to be one who engages in public transport"?
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Never once did I mention that every terrorist is muslim.
Or even that every muslim is a terrorist.

Timothy was not arab, muslim.

Liberty comes at a cost, a cost that we (the free people) have to deal with.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin
 
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined"
-- Patrick Henry
 
The searches are not designed to catch anyone, they are designed to intimidate/scare them elsewere.
The question is will the bomber be persistent enough or willing to get caught before carrying out the chosen mission, or will they simply set the thing off right then and there?
 
Even if the bomber is made, and the cops move on him...what are they going to do? if the bomber is made he will set the bomb off. taking a few cops with him/her.
 
Even if the bomber is made, and the cops move on him...what are they going to do? if the bomber is made he will set the bomb off. taking a few cops with him/her.
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Small price to pay considering the casualties if they set their bomb off in a more densly crowded area.
 
Frank -

Even assuming these random searches are 'reasonable', what do you honestly think it will accomplish other than creating more jobs and overtime for law enforcement officers?

Do you honestly believe they are going to actually catch a terrorist with a suitcase full of C4? Do you honestly think it will deter anyone planning a terrorist act?

The searches are voluntary. If you don't wish to comply, you can simply walk away. The average space between subway stops in NYC is about7-8 blocks - about a five minute walk. Do you mean to tell us you think a five minute walk is going to deter a terrorist?

As I see it, there will be nothing accomplished but the inconveniencing of thousands of NYC straphangers, a potential for constitutional violations, and the continued desensitization of the public to this sort of encroachment on their rights. Of course, if you're in law enforcement I'm sure this all sounds great - more jobs and more overtime (gee-whiz, now didn't the NYPD union support Bloomberg in the last election?). All those cops standing around the subway stations come at a great cost to the public, but other than perpetuating their own jobs what do you see these random searches as really accomplishing?
 
Frank -

Even assuming these random searches are 'reasonable', what do you honestly think it will accomplish other than creating more jobs and overtime for law enforcement officers?
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It will keep some politcians from losing some votes if something happens and they didn't bother to do anything in response to the London blasts.

It will give some people some peace of mind.

It will give investigators video of the people who entered the station and left without getting searched.

It may channel a potential terrorist to a less valuable target.
 
It will keep some politcians from losing some votes if something happens and they didn't bother to do anything in response to the London blasts.

It will give some people some peace of mind.

It will give investigators video of the people who entered the station and left without getting searched.
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The video can be done without the random searches and in fact has already been done. Most stations in the city are already under some video surveillance and have been for quite some time.

So you think creating a false sense of security and potentially saving politicians jobs are worth the cost?

Great.

(edited to add...)

To address the channelling function which you added: as I said, the average is 7 blocks between stops. If they can't get on at 42nd St. to pop their bomb they easily can walk to 47th and ride down five blocks. It won't stop a thing.
 
The video can be done without the random searches and in fact has already been done. Most stations in the city are already under some video surveillance and have been for quite some time.
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I said they'd have video of the people leaving who didn't want to be searched. Why would they leave if they didn't have to be searched? The video of people avoiding the search can help narrow down a huge suspect pool. Kinda like how they used to pay extra special attention to the guy who turned around in the highway turnarounds AFTER he saw the "narcotics checkpoint" sign, but before he got up to the cops ahead. Narcotics checkpoints have since been ruled unconstitutional. I wonder if you could just put the SIGN up though. You could probably get a few before they figured out you weren't actually searching anyone.

So you think creating a false sense of security and potentially saving politicians jobs are worth the cost?

Great.
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Nope, but there are enough people who do to make it worthwhile for the politicians. You didn't ask me what they should do, you asked me what the stuff they ARE doing would accomplish. There won't be that many people who leave to avoid the search. Most people either have no problem with the searches or won't want to be inconvenienced by leaving. So the ones who DO leave will be worth getting a picture of.
 
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To me, it's really a scary sight when you see the LEO's on tv that are in the subways.

Reminds me of pictures, video of the police states (countries) of Germany, Kosovo, etc..

I mean, they have fully auto rifles in a condensed area. What are the chances that they will hit more then the bomber if they open fire? And when they do kill the bomber (hopefully without the bomb going off), what is going to be the aftermath when one bomber is dead and five, ten, whatever citizens are also dead or wounded, not by the bomb but by the automatic subgun/machinegun fire?

It may give some a warm fuzzy but I would be more afraid of being hit by stray rounds then actually being close enough to the bomber/bomb to be hurt or killed by them/it.

Wayne
 
Frank Drebin said:
I said they'd have video of the people leaving who didn't want to be searched. Why would they leave if they didn't have to be searched? The video of people avoiding the search can help narrow down a huge suspect pool.
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You're amazing, Frank, you really are. What you, as a sworn LEO, support is a system where American Citizens are placed under suspicion, en masse, until such time as they can prove they are innocent; You support "VOLUNTARY" searches, while simultaneously raising the level of the suspicion on those AMERICAN CITIZENS who make the "wrong" choice.

Do you have any idea the types of societies who's leaders and LEO's have embraced and enforced that specific philosophy? When you retire, I suggest you seek a staff position with Chuck Schumer....your philosophies are extraordinarily similar. ;)
Rich
 
Please Read

There is absolutely no problem with profiling or searching right now. Don’t carry bombs or be breaking the law and you would have nothing to worry about. The police doing the searches are our Dads, Uncles, Brothers and Sisters. Not mindless drones. We the people have the power to give them the right to search for suspicious behavior and packages, and we the people have the power to end those very same searches, whenever we want. Include yourself in this country! We all run this land. Every one of us does. Never forget that For God sakes VOTE, for who you WANT to represent you.

I do feel bad for some Muslims and peaceful citizens of Middle Eastern decent. However, they need to make themselves part of the solution, rather than whining about being searched too much. Head back to your country, mosque and families, and tell them, "hey, if we don't start to weed out the bad seeds among our people, we will ALL continue to be targeted" And of course there are, and will be "terrorists" of all different ethnicity and cultural backgrounds that will also carry out these acts of terror, but you need to destroy the "hive" to remove the threat of hornets...so to speak.

The fundamentalist are sitting in their mosques, spouting off about a need for an Islamic revolution and the creation of extremists Muslim states, controlled by the "religious leaders" as many of the countries in the Middle East are now. It is by and large, a war or religious philosophies, the big difference is that the Muslims that are perpetuating these terror acts, would rather kill everyone who is not in line with their beliefs rather than be tolerant of their faiths. We should all be tolerant of any faith or culture, but not when that faith or culture involves taking away FREEDOM and the killing everyone not like themselves. You may practice your religion, but not at the price of my life. It's time to hold the threat of complete destruction, to the religions that continue to be violently intolerant. It seems that’s the only change they understand and want.
 
You're amazing, Frank, you really are. What you, as a sworn LEO, support is a system where American Citizens are placed under suspicion, en masse, until such time as they can prove they are innocent; You support "VOLUNTARY" searches, while simultaneously raising the level of the suspicion on those AMERICAN CITIZENS who make the "wrong" choice.
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I support not reading things into the 4th amendment that aren't there. What they're doing in NYC seems reasonable to me, and I believe, the majority of those with a "reasonable" idea of what reasonable is. That's all the 4th amendment requires. As far as taking pictures or looking at people who choose to leave without being searched: You have no reasonable expectation of privacy in your physical appearance. The government can watch you all they want when you're out in public.
 
J West...
People like you.. nevermind I'll keep my opinions to myself.
But if you give the government an inch they will want a mile.

It isnt the duty of the government to keep the people safe.

It's our job..your safety is your responsibility...but wait New Yorkers cant defend themselves, CCL is too hard to get..

So the local Government made themselves needed. by first banning guns... now doing random searches..closer and closer to what we fought in both world wars. TOTAL GOVERNMENT CONTROL!

Not only are the searches going on in the subways, they are now doing them on buses, random buses will have several cops on them and they will do searches..

When will this END? where do we draw the line?
Yes to ride public transportation that NEW YORKERS PAY FOR is under nazi control now. so this may or may not drive terrorists to blow themselves up next to a bus, does that now give NYPD the right to do searches NEAR Buses?

Is the sidewalk also public transportation? do they have the right to say "if you dont let me search you, you cant use this sidewalk"

This is the first step on a downward slope... leading to one place and thats total control.
 
People like me? Now who are “people like me”?

Feel free to elaborate. I personally hold a CCW in my state. I am very pro gun. I also agree it is the responsibility of every individual to protect themselves with whatever means they see fit. I agree the laws in New York suck in that regard. All of that still doesn’t change the fact that proactive action needs to be taken to root out and protect the USA from the threat of terrorists. We’re talking about 2 different issues here. YES. Absolutely everyone in America should have the right to carry. Period. That’s not what I was talking about. You seem a little paranoid that the Government is out to take away all of your rights. Sure the Democrat’s are, so vote Republican and join the NRA!

What gives??
 
J West said:
proactive action needs to be taken to root out and protect the USA from the threat of terrorists.
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EXACTLY HOW is a random, yet voluntary search of American citizens' personal papers and effects "proactive protection". Kindly be specific.

J West said:
We the people have the power to give them the right to search for suspicious behavior and packages, and we the people have the power to end those very same searches, whenever we want.
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EXACTLY WHEN did we give government agents the right to search "random" non-suspicious persons and packages and EXACTLY HOW do we exercise "the power to end those very same searches"? Again, kindly be specific.....because, unless you can answer these simple questions with clarity, you're unwittingly piddling on the flag.
Rich
 
Wait. I think I've seen this reasoning before. [Furiously flips pages of his history book.] That's right.....it happened in the McCarthy era....and again with the Brady Law; and again and again....oh, THERE it is: "If we can just save ONE life".
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Rich, you are wrong. Searching does not cause anyone any damage or harm, other than a slight delay. If it is public knowledge that searches are being conducted then they have the "right" not to go there. No one is forced to ride the subway, there are alternative methods of transportation and there are alternative destinations, so if they volunteer to ride the subway, then they must abide by the rules of the subway authority.

You apparently would be happy to allow the terrorists absolute free entry into the subway system, and to me that makes no sense at all. It is a fact that the terrorists have targeted the USA, and that they used the transportation system to do it. It is a fact that they have since attacked the subway system in London, and there is every reason to believe that they can and will do the same in the USA. Why would you want to not do at least some small thing to try to prevent a bombing in a US subway? Random searches may not do much good, but they sure don't hurt anything either.
 
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