Paul Gomez on 9mm vs .45

Drew332, here's a couple excerps from Steve's writings.
"If you want to drain a bucket full of water the bigger the hole you drill in the bucket the faster the water will flow out the bottom. The same thing for humans and animals, however there is no significant difference in flow rates between hole sizes in .35”, .40”, .45”. Yes I know there IS a difference but do the math. Let’s say the bucket has a bottom that’s 1.8m2 (average body surface area of a male human is 1.8m2 ), 19.3ft2 , or 2970in2. If you poke a .45” hole in the bottom then .0054% of the surface area is allowing water to escape. If you poke a .35” hole in the bottom then .0034% is allowing water to escape. Personally I don’t think their is much difference between .0034% and .0054% in relation to the human body. After all it’s only 0.002%!!!"

"124gr Speer Gold Dot Penetration: 12.6” FBI Test

230gr Speer Gold Dot Penetration: 16” FBI Test"
First off golddots are designed to expand >1.5 times their diameter. so the hole poked in the bucket would be more like .532" or roughly .0052% and .678" or roughly .0066% add to that the fact that many buckets may fall into the 13 to 15" range and now you have two .678" diameter holes leaking another .0066%. and since the actual difference between .0052 % and .0132% is actually 250% many buckets it would seem would be leaking 2.5 times faster when shot with a 45. crap now you got to hit the bucket 3 times with the 9mm.
 
Thanks for Posting this

Very good video with well reasoned information. I still prefer my Springfield FBI Pro Model in .45 acp for most applications but I am sure that Paul is cool with that. If I decide to switch at some point to a .40 cal or a nine for reasons of greater conceal-ability, higher capacity or both, I certainly don't feel I'd be under armed as far as handgun choices are concerned.

Post Script: Glenn, Cooper IS a God.

So, how about we skip the silly humor attempts and cliches?
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Great Idea, lets keep the BS jokes and dramatics out of it.

Or you can just shoot a couple of shots and go over to the guy with a cup of tea to see if he is still a threat.
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????

What Glenn, you only laugh at your own jokes?
 
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The problem for most people is that caliber selection is in a huge part an emotional decision. I grew up with the stories of the POWER of the mighty 45. I carried one as an MP in the Army. At the emotional level I love the 45 and have no use for a 9mm.

From the practical point of view I understand in the hands of someone with a certain level of training, experience and skill it does not matter what you use. I know that my 40 Glock or my 45 Glock will each work fine if I do my part. I do not own a 9mm, like I said I have no use for one. In all honesty, there is nothing that a 9mm or a 45 will do any better than my Glock 23. The reality of the 45 ACP, is that it is really an anemic cartridge by modern standards, yes it worked well 100 years ago, but people were a lot smaller then. We now have the McDonald's generation of thugs.

I really like the magnum revolvers, big bullets moving fast, and my everywhere gun is a J frame 357, and yes I shoot and carry it with full power magnums.

We are all different and different guns fit each of us differently, we all have different skill sets, me, I have 10's of thousands of rounds out of 357 magnum revolvers and shoot it very well. I had 15,000 rounds thru my H&K when I retired, I still shoot a Glock better, so what.

I have always carried the most powerful gun that I can shoot well and conceal, because someday it may be that 6'5" 350 lb maniac with the chainsaw or sword.

It is the shooter, not the gun, caliber, bullet that determines the outcome more times than not.

Just my 2 cents to the eternal argument.
 
I believe that much of the .45 ACP round charm is tied to 1911 platform and 1911 is indeed a sweet thing to handle. My feeling was that this pistol excels at the look and point ability which is very much needed in selfdefence situation. And the gun just fits the hand like a glove.

But everything goes back to the roots and this is, I believe, Fairbairn's and Sykes' Shooting to live. In this book they described the "ideal combat handgun" as something as close to SMG as possible. And they carried and practiced with 1911 guns.

Another fact is, that people who really do use handguns in fight tend to prefer .45 ACP. There must be some reason backed with an experience. There might not be an easy technical explanation but the .45 ACP seems to be working for the pistol guys.

Why do I carry a nine: I can practice more for the same money, simply as that. I know people who switched from 9 to .45 and stopped practicing.
 
20 is better than 8 and just like the oft quoted philosophy on carry: "It's better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it"
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Well put Irish ... well put.

I like Nnobby's point too and he's right. 15 or 17 rounds is not a high capacity magazine. The 15rd magazine in my Cougar is the standard capacity magazine (as is the 17rd one in the 92FS). The 10 rd magazines are not standard, they are reduced capacity for places like the Republik of Kalifornia. ;)

9mm ˜ .45auto, .40sw has a bit of an edge, they're all effective so in the end, give me rounds. Thinking of multiple shots to stop or, these days, multiple assailants, I'd rather have 14 shots left over than come up with 5 shots to few.
 
460 Rowland gives you both high capacity in a 45 ACP based platform that shoots mig 44 Magnum range... My upgraded Springfield XD 45 Tactical holds 13 rounds..
 
Posted by Nanuk: I have always carried the most powerful gun that I can shoot well and conceal, because someday it may be that 6'5" 350 lb maniac with the chainsaw or sword.
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What do you mean by "shoot well"?

And what is it that you believe that more power gives you as compared to any of the better penetrating rounds that Paul discusses?

Have you considered the disadvantages?
 
mavracer, you lost me with your 4+1 .45 reference. If you want to start by quoting me, that is fine, but try not to imply that I have said things that I haven't.
 
9mm over penetrates. 9mm under penetrates. Which is it now? Expert texperts! Why don't you just shoot old tried and true .45 acp. Everyone must know by now that St. Browning designed the .45 acp with .45 Colt performance in mind. I don't think the .45 1911a1 misses that by much.
After the first exchange, if everybody does their part, one participant has to recover from a nine, and try to get the next shot off, while the other has to recover from a .45, and try to get the next shot off. Everybody likes to talk about getting the next shot off. This is wishful thinking. Make that first shot count. 8 times 230gr and 15 times 124 gr. both equal 1860. So the throw weight goes almost two to one. Give me a .45, and I don't care what the aggressor is hopped up on. I'm still going to fight my way back to my rifle!
 
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Going by "throw weight," a 17th century 12lb cannon ball is preferable to a burst of 25mm from a chain gun...
 
SocialAnarchist, HRT and SWAT normally don't go in alone. They are normally in teams. Capacity is typically not as big an issue, since they have multiple shooters.

Additionally, in most cases, their sidearms are backups to an SBR, SMG, or shotgun.
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this is 100% correct..lets say my element is carrying all 1911's like in LAPD SWAT then capacity isn't really an issue. You have them, extra mags and most of all..your primary weapon.
 
So if high capacity is the answer get a ParaOrdinance 1911 with 14+1 rounds, or a Taurus Millenium with 10+1, or any number of the new polymer double stakcs with 10 to 15 rounds of .45acp.

I guess I see this going around in circles because at first high capacity is the answer, yet when I state those groups that use .45s, capacity is no longer an issue because they work in teams. I gues if I felt the need for 15 rounds I don't think I would care what my partners were carrying...
 
For many people, the grip is just too big on a Para, or G21 / G30, or M&P45, or (insert double-stack here). As in , too big to shoot well, for some, and too big to conceal, for others.

I do sometimes carry a full-size M&P45; I am also relatively large (so I can conceal bigger guns), with relatively large hands (so I can get a comfortable grip on larger grips; in fact, my M&Ps have the large backstraps installed.)

One size does not fit all.

And my concerns are different if I am alone, or with people I know to be unarmed, than they would be if I were out with a few of my martial arts / CCW / LEO buddies. (Those groups have some overlap in my social circle.)
 
, you lost me with your 4+1 .45 reference. If you want to start by quoting me, that is fine, but try not to imply that I have said things that I haven'
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Really wasn't trying to imply that you said anything, mearly poiinting out another apples to oranges compairison. Don't take everything personal.
 
The 9mm is an amazing caliber. The cost of ammo increases significantly and 9mm becomes cheaper to shoot, the nine suddenly elevates it'self right up there with calibers that had previously been considered superior.:cool:

And lastly:

1. A larger capacity magazine doesn't mean one has switched to spray and pray.

2. The 9mm, with modern ammo, isn't far enough behind the effectivness of other calibers to worry about.

3. A pistol, like the .45 has more recoil than the 9mm, but also recovers from recoil quicker, since the recoil is both UP and back DOWN quicker. One can shoot a .45 as fast as a 9mm. It's a matter of timing. In fact, many a .45 shooter has had to adjust his timing to the recoil of the 9mm so he/she could shoot it as fast.
 
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Whoa...I have an idea. Most important factor that we all forget that if you do not agree on it's because you're prideful.

Ready?



Shot placement is always key.


-fin-
 
Shot placement is always key.
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Yes, but so obvious and agreed upon, it doesn't provide a subject we can argue --I mean discuss. Now, take the 9mm vs. the .45. Or the this bullet vs. that bullet, or high cap vs. single stack.

THOSE are subjects that make for GREAT disagreement and for threads 4 pages long (and growing):D.
 
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