Paul Gomez on 9mm vs .45

Nanuk, I did not intend to appear to tear up what you say.

I certainly do agree that one must be able to fire slowly before firing fast. I had gotten the impression that you were one of the many we see here who visualize shooting "accurately" at a stationary person--with an immediate one shot stop. The internet teems with them.

I did note that your revolver is a BUG. Wise choice.

I think that Paul Gomez makes some good points here, and while there are some who tire of seeing some of the same points regurgitated on their computer time and again, there are many people who for various reasons labor under a lot of misconceptions borne of folklore and propagated in screen fiction. IMHO, he addresses some of them well.

I do not want to seem to question your judgment, but I remain unconvinced about the advantages of the .357 Magnum as a defensive choice. Though marketed in part as a hunting weapon (the earlier .38-44 version of the Registered Magnum was called the "Outdoorsman"), its real benefit for law enforcement was said to be its ability to penetrate car bodies. That's something I do not expect to have to do.
 
Slow fire groups help me establish a baseline. Without a baseline it is meaningless to attempt fast shooting. I did not say that was all I did, just where I started.
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I second that..That's how I learned to be a very precise with rapid fire.

Once had 1,000rds when I first purchase my SIG 226 e2...ran all 1,000rds in one day. I learned that trigger so darn well I could pick off a toothpick. Then again, I'm pretty sure any of us given 1,000rds of ammo can learn one gun that well.


As they say "fear the man with one gun"



Then..later on as I started shooting my 1911's and Glocks after a few months of only shooting my SIG, I regressed with the SIG when I went back to SA only guns with different trigger mechanisms.


::sigh:: of guns :)
 
But those were the factors under discussion in the OP video, and since. So how are they "de-bunking" the .45acp?

Seems some .45acp folk get knee-jerk defensive over the supposed supremacy of their anointed round.

The .45acp is a good, viable duty round. It is not a talisman or some divine thing. I respect the .45, and often carry a .45. I am not married to it.

Some people seem to be.
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I commented on the general state of discussion. Your use of 'anointed' is proving my point, just like "St. browning" being used to deride the .45. It's a useless and childish standpoint- the 9mm is a good enough round to stand on its own merits, not the .45's failings. If you need to put down the .45 to make an argument for the 9mm, then you have a poor argument.

Maybe you don't see it. I sure do. You are very defensive about what I posted; you're ready for a fight. You took my comment and now you won't let it go until you make something of it. Your approach here is unnecessary. I said it has become de rigeur to put down the .45 acp and I wondered when that started. You're doing a fair amount to make something else out of it. Please stop. If you want to know what I really, really, really meant, read my original comment again, and then stop, because that's all I said. I don't have to tie it in with the video and justify it in terms of each and every post in this thread, and I don't have to have it pass your litmus test and then defend myself to you.
 
OM,

When I got out of the army as an MP who carried a 45 and got into civilian LE in 1982 I lot of cops carrying 357 magnums were carrying 158 Grn LSWC. That is the round that penetrates so well and if I remember correctly was the original loading for the 357.

While I worked for the Ft Worth, Texas PD during the 1980's we were issued Remington 158 Grn JHP's, they too over-penetrated. I am a huge fan of the 145 Grn Winchester STHP in 357 Magnum as it did not seem to over penetrate as bad. The 125 Grn magnum penetrates even less and causes devastating wounds. The full power 125 Grn 357 Magnum is traveling at about 1400-1459 FPS from a 4" barrel.

The old Illinois State Police load for the 9mm with a 115 Grn +P+ at about 1350 FPS was used by the US Border Patrol for those that carried 9mm's in the 90's and it worked VERY well. Most of us with revolvers used the Silvertip load.
 
It's hard to do a comparison of rounds without looking at how they compare for different factors. The 9mm will come out ahead on some, and the .45 will come out ahead on others.

The only "attacks" I've made haven't been on a cartridge, and my references to "St Browning" and the "anointed round" have nothing to do with .45 performance, and everything to do with the way some people endow the .45 with mythical capabilities.

When Glock afficionados do this, they get called out all the time. Everybody in the forum has probably heard or read the term "Kool-Aid" associated with this phenomenon. That barely raises an eyebrow anymore.

There are many people who are .45 Kool-Aid drinkers, too.

It's a good round. Whether its performance advantages (larger starting diameter, greater mass, relatively lower noise and flash compared to higher pressure rounds) outweigh its performance disadvantages (lower capacity unless one gets a fairly large gun, slower follow-up capability for many shooters, requirement for longer magazine well and grip-frame than those for a 9mm or .40) depends on circumstances.

Some people are for the .45 over all else, no matter what.

That's the attitude with which I have an issue. There is no magic round.

Again, I like the .45; I own .45s. I also have a 10mm, a .40, and several 9mm pistols - not to mention a .22, some .357s, a .38, and some .44s.

Each has its own advantages and disadvantages. None are perfect for all applications.
 
OldMarksman said:
I think that Paul Gomez makes some good points here, and while there are some who tire of seeing some of the same points regurgitated on their computer time and again, there are many people who for various reasons labor under a lot of misconceptions borne of folklore and propagated in screen fiction. IMHO, he addresses some of them well.
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^^^^ I agree.

I believe that people should choose their handgun to suit their own personal needs after thoroughly researching make, model, caliber, etc. There is no magic one-size-fits-all fit for everyone in regards to what type of handgun or caliber....each has its strengths and weaknesses and purposes.

I easily tire of those types that give into such misconceptions and lore about particular handgun platforms or calibers and spout it as fact. If you have a solid reason for using said handgun or caliber, and can back that up with your own thorough research, then good for you. Know the reasons why you made your decision. Be educated, trained, and proficient with the weapon you choose.

I carry a .40S&W Sig P226R on duty (because that's what we're issued) and a S&W M&P340CT as my BUG. Off duty I alternate between my 9mm Glock 19 and 26, and sometimes just my M&P340CT, depending on weather, clothing, and other circumstances. In any case, I always have a blade or two on me as well.

I am equally confident, and proficient, with all of my chosen handguns/weapons because I am a Warrior, armed with knowledge, training, and experience. For isn't the Warrior the true weapon, the firearms, blades, his body are all just tools.

drew
De Oppresso Liber
2/1 SFG(A)
 
Regarding the horse (bones)

I believe that people should choose their handgun to suit their own personal needs after thoroughly researching make, model, caliber, etc. There is no magic one-size-fits-all fit for everyone in regards to what type of handgun or caliber....each has its strengths and weaknesses and purposes.
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And after 6 days and 6 pages of postings .... we reach the same conclusion once again. :cool:

(well put Drew)
 
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