Paul Gomez on 9mm vs .45

The typical self defense situation results in the defender firing an average of two rounds... So 14, 18 or 100 is not likely to be to a carriers advantage.. Its not that its impossible they will use more rounds but 18 seems seriously unlikely.
 
AK103K said:
The rounds in question here are rounds designed to meet a specific criteria, which the rounds in that pic in the video show. You can always go outside the criteria to try and make your point, which often happens in these type threads, but it really doesnt change anything.

So to me what he said boils down to, "I'd rather carry the round that lets me shoot more before I have to reload, since caliber really doesnt matter."
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There, I fixed it for you.
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No, you fixed it for you. I don't accept his premise. I can accept that all (or most, or many) modern JHP cartridges are designed to provide penetration that meets the FBI 12" to 18" criterion. What I do not accept is that a 9mm bullet that penetrates to virtually the exact same depth as a .45 bullet will also produce almost exactly the same wound channel. The photos and data I have seen from a friend who is a police firearms instructor who periodically tests ammo to see what's best for his department suggests that a 9mm JHP that expands very well ends up about the same (expanded) diameter as a .45 bullet that hardly expands at all.

Obviously, velocity also plays a role in determining both depth of penetration and size/shape of wound channel, but when you show me an image of five or six completely different rounds that ALL have virtually identical profiles in ballistic gelatin -- I simply decline to accept the image or the associated argument as valid.

YMMV.
 
MLeake, if we were trying to stop the BG by raising his temprature then energy would be a good measure of a bullets ability to stop the BG. But it's not. Bullet diameter and momentum are far more indicative to the perminate channel. Sectional density is a big player too.
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I always thought that energy was the ability to do work, since back when they taught something in school worth learning, and that if the energy is properly harnessed by proper bullet design for optimum penetration and expansion, that the effect would be superior to bullets that have less energy.

Nice to know that the energy of the .357 compared to the .38 Spl. isn't indicative of it's ability to make the bullet perform better. And of course, the temporary cavity from a bullet at 1400 + fps (in many 4" police revolvers) couldn't possibly be a "stopping power" contributor. Just note the number of people who are constantly telling us that. If you can't measure it, then it must not be there.
 
When all said and done, a small gun in the pocket beats a heavy gun in the truck.

That's why I carry a 642 instead of a 1911 or Beretta.
 
In what context? One target, multiple targets, misses on targets that are moving or while you were moving, or both
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If your not gonna hit anything extra ammo won't help. I don't understand how you think having 2-4 extra rounds gives you a better chance of surviving aginst multiple attackers when you seem to think you might need all 17 for one.
I would think it would be the other way around. If the gun is to hard to shoot, you may well need those additional rounds to make up for your poor choice in weaponry.
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full size G17 vs G21 = 4 rounds
ultra compact PM9 vs PM45 = 1 round


I always thought that energy was the ability to do work, since back when they taught something in school worth learning, and that if the energy is properly harnessed by proper bullet design for optimum penetration and expansion, that the effect would be superior to bullets that have less energy.
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It would help if you would understand the difference between energy and momentum. Energy can change forms in the case of bullets it starts as chemical energy in the form of gunpowder changes to thermal energy as the gunpowder burns to kinetic energy when the pressure accelerates the bullet then back to heat energy as friction slows. unfortunatly this system is very inefficient as little of the heat energy from the powder is transfered to the bullet.
momentum on the otherhand is conserved, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
 
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MLeake:

Social Anarchist, are you shooting 9mm from the same type and size platform as the one you use for .45? Or are you shooting 9mm from a smaller, lighter weapon?

Seems to me a lot of people will do that, and then complain about snappy 9mm...
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My .45acp is a Springfield Loaded 1911A-1, my 9mm is a Ruger P89. I have heard the Ruger called a lot of things but smaller, and lighter have never been any of them.

I can tell you that I was shooting with my youngest son one day and wanted to show him rapid target acquisition shooting. I had my Loaded with 1 in the chamber and a 7 round mag inserted, I had 2 more 7 round mags stuck in my belt. From about 15 yards I fired and reloaded as fast as I could and put all 22 rounds in a 5 inch circular target. I don't seem to have any trouble reacquiring the target rapidly and accurately with my .45.

I know the next question is have I done the same with the P89. No I have not. I will the next time I go shooting. I can tell you so far for me it is FAR easier to be more accurate with the .45 than the 9. That may just be more time with the .45. I bought the P89 to allow for more shooting time since 9mm is obviously cheaper than .45acp, but I still seem to shoot the .45 more.

As for which round is better...I am no physicist, or weapons expert of any kind, I am a recreational shooter. But it seems to me that if I shoot someone twice in the chest with a 230 grain hollow point traveling at 850 fps, versus shooting them twice in the chest with a 115 grain hollow point taveling at 1500 fps, assuming that the bullet construction is the same, the only way to make up for the mass of the .45 is by the velocity of the 9mm. What velocity does it take from a 9mm to equal the mass/velocity impact of the .45acp?

AND I understand completely it is shot placement that truly matters more than anything in MANY cases. But I find it hard to dispute a bigger bullet doing more damage, more rapidly, with less shots, than a smaller bullet.
 
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A103K:

I have read over and over here about repeat target acquisition and following shots. To me that is less about the gun and the ammunition and more about practice, practice, practice. I do double and triple taps, but I also practice shooting as fast as I can, emptying the magazine, reloading, and doing it again. Not just to see how fast I can shoot, but how accurate I can be shooting fast.
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Ive shot more than my share of .45 over the years, and still do on a regular basis. A few years back, I saw the light and switched over to high capacity 9mm's, for most of the reasons discussed here. There is no doubt in my mind it was the right choice. I can shoot faster and more accurate with the 9mm's than I can the .45's, .40's, and a couple of others, and I can do it longer before I have to reload. In some cases, three times plus longer.

Being able to shoot the heavier calibers well just translates to shooting the lighter calibers even better. While the .45's may seem to be less snappy, they really arent, and they do take more time and effort to get back on target quickly with, no matter how much you practice. If you can do it quick with the .45, the 9mm will be just that much easier.
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My answer is "Hey if you like the 9mm better more power to you." I happen to like the .45acp and find it, so far anyways, easier for me to rapidly repeat acquire targets.

My wife can shoot the .45 with no problems, hates my 9mm. But to be brutally honest she is a much better shot with her Neos with a Red Dot sight. I pity anyone that tries to hurt her with that in her hand. Before they find the time to crap themselves they will have 10 -.22 hollow points in their chest, and while they are standing there bleeding probably another 10 more.
 
P89s are solid guns, but the few I have shot were not nearly so easy to shoot as a good 1911. For me, at least, the P89 trigger wasn't optimal. I would be curious to see how you and your wife felt about the rounds if fired from more similar platforms.

Bear in mind that perceived recoil is also affected by bore axis height; grip fit, composition, and trigger reach; and psychological factors (reaction to noise, flash, etc).
 
MLeake:

P89s are solid guns, but the few I have shot were not nearly so easy to shoot as a good 1911. For me, at least, the P89 trigger wasn't optimal. I would be curious to see how you and your wife felt about the rounds if fired from more similar platforms.

Bear in mind that perceived recoil is also affected by bore axis height; grip fit, composition, and trigger reach; and psychological factors (reaction to noise, flash, etc).
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The DA trigger pull is stiff, after that all the single action trigger pulls are light and easy. I can shoot it just fine and find the grip comfortable. Just not as natural feeling as the 1911.

As for shooting the 9mm in a similar platform, in a more perfect economic world I would own either a 1911 Loaded in 9mm or a Browning Hi-Power.
 
When all said and done, a small gun in the pocket beats a heavy gun in the truck.

That's why I carry a 642 instead of a 1911 or Beretta.
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Well, a P229, P220 or the aforementioned @ 4 O'Clock, beat both.:D
 
If your not gonna hit anything extra ammo won't help. I don't understand how you think having 2-4 extra rounds gives you a better chance of surviving aginst multiple attackers when you seem to think you might need all 17 for one.
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I know we all like to think were expert shots, but its funny how things tend to fall apart and not go as planned when things go south. Can you honestly say you know how many rounds youre going to need to solve all encounters that may present themselves?

17 rounds simply gives you more options. If you think you can get it done in all cases with 5, great. Id personally prefer to get it done in 1, and have 16 left over, instead of needing 6, and only have 5. Thats all Im saying, I'd rather have some options, the caliber arguments are really pointless, as its obvious that they all pretty much suck as people stoppers.


The cop in Ayoob's article in the link above was carrying a 14 round Glock in .45acp. .45 and high cap, best of both worlds, right? At 5' (and thats not a typo either, the distance was 5'), he emptied his gun and only got 7 hits, the bad guy emptied his .45 too, and only got 1 hit out of 9. Both are still alive too, so so much for the "power" of the .45acp.

Now, I have to assume that the cop had some training in "realistic" type shooting, and his skills werent just based on how well he shot groups at bullseye targets at his leisure (something that many seem to base theirs on from what Ive seen). In the real world, even with training, things dont "always" go as planned, and actually, "rarely" is probably more appropriate choice of words.

Options are good. ;)


As for which round is better...I am no physicist, or weapons expert of any kind, I am a recreational shooter. But it seems to me that if I shoot someone twice in the chest with a 230 grain hollow point traveling at 850 fps, versus shooting them twice in the chest with a 115 grain hollow point taveling at 1500 fps, assuming that the bullet construction is the same, the only way to make up for the mass of the .45 is by the velocity of the 9mm. What velocity does it take from a 9mm to equal the mass/velocity impact of the .45acp?
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Its pointless to worry about it, with either, you shoot until there is no longer a threat. It takes what it takes to get it done.
 
A103K:

Its pointless to worry about it, with either, you shoot until there is no longer a threat. It takes what it takes to get it done.
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I can't help but wonder if it is pointless why does the FBI Special Hostage rescue team carry .45s? Why does that special team on the LAPD carry .45s? Why do several special ops groups in the military still use.45s?

If the 9mm was the equal of the .45 it would seem the entire military would all carry the Beretta Model 92FS that the regular troops carry.

Just saying...
 
And what do they do when they engage a target with their .45's?

Youre hung up on caliber and missing the point.
 
So would you rather have a MEUSOC soldier with a 1911 .45 at your side or a SEAL with a P226 9x19mm. My answer is YES. Point is there are a fair number of high speed low drag folks who use 9x19 as well. SAS comes to mind. Really if I had the SEALS, SAS, Marines or LA SWAT coming after me I don't think the handgun round they use is a major factor.

Just saying.
 
SocialAnarchist, HRT and SWAT normally don't go in alone. They are normally in teams. Capacity is typically not as big an issue, since they have multiple shooters.

Additionally, in most cases, their sidearms are backups to an SBR, SMG, or shotgun.

You are making a bit of an apples and oranges comparison.
 
You dont think its because they carry rifles as a primary weapon, and have a full team along with them? The handgun is secondary/back up.
 
AK103K said:
I know we all like to think were expert shots, but its funny how things tend to fall apart and not go as planned when things go south. Can you honestly say you know how many rounds youre going to need to solve all encounters that may present themselves?

17 rounds simply gives you more options. If you think you can get it done in all cases with 5, great. Id personally prefer to get it done in 1, and have 16 left over, instead of needing 6, and only have 5. Thats all Im saying, I'd rather have some options, the caliber arguments are really pointless, as its obvious that they all pretty much suck as people stoppers.


The cop in Ayoob's article in the link above was carrying a 14 round Glock in .45acp. .45 and high cap, best of both worlds, right? At 5' (and thats not a typo either, the distance was 5'), he emptied his gun and only got 7 hits, the bad guy emptied his .45 too, and only got 1 hit out of 9. Both are still alive too, so so much for the "power" of the .45acp.

Now, I have to assume that the cop had some training in "realistic" type shooting, and his skills werent just based on how well he shot groups at bullseye targets at his leisure (something that many seem to base theirs on from what Ive seen). In the real world, even with training, things dont "always" go as planned, and actually, "rarely" is probably more appropriate choice of words.

Options are good. ;)
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^^^ +1
 
You are making a bit of an apples and oranges comparison.
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And compairing the 17 round Glock 9mm to this mythical 5 round 45 auto ( at least I've not seen a 4+1 45acp auto) isn't apples to oranges.
 
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