Passive Non-Compliance

[BikerRN]

Going back to the original post, four pages ago, here's my response.

If I'm at home, I am off duty. Therefore I have no legal duty to intervene and knowing that my agency considers any actions taken off duty as not being within the scope of my employment, I'm making some popcorn and watching a movie while I wait for the On Duty LEO's.

Heck, the stuff in the ride is insured. I doubt many people outside of law enforcement have considered that the badguy may be non-compliant. I'm sort of chuckling to myself over this scenario.

Me, I'd be looking for the Insurance Company to "make whole" my ride, and looking forward to it too. As long as the industrious disadvantaged individual doesn't make any actions that I perceive as threatening harm to me or a loved one he can have whatever he wants when I'm not working.

No, I don't "lay down" and I'm not a "push-over", I just know how much rope I have to play with in this locality and with my current employer. BTW: I know how to legally turn that 30 minute response time in to three minutes, and it's available for anyone to do, LEO or not.

No, I will not tell you how, as that is something you will have to figure out on your own.

Biker

 

[grammythunder]

Wooh! I'm glade I live in Texas!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[skydiver3346]

Sorry Pax:

I am just getting so tired of all the assaults, robberies, etc. going on around the the country nowadays and it seems we just have to take it, (because of all the "rules/laws" that seem to protect the perp more than the victim). I really get bummed out about it............ I know you are just trying to help.

 

[TailGator]

The statute as quoted by Pax prohibits action that is likely to cause death or great physical harm, so all that speculation about freak accidents is not in the same league as talking about shooting him or breaking his legs with a baseball bat.

Back to tactics: All of this talk about rubbing Tabasco in his face, grabbing his legs to drag him out, etc., brings me into way too close contact with a guy who has clearly demonstrated that he has no respect for law and ethics and therefore very likely may not value human life. I personally am not getting killed over a car radio or an airbag. I will, as I said some days ago, take pictures. I will keep track of the guy from a safe distance and stay in touch with the 911 dispatcher.

And I will darn sure make sure the sheriff knows that I was told to wait 30 minutes for a response with a crime in progress and a perpetrator, who could have turned violent at any moment, in my immediate presence. And if I didn't get a satisfactory response from the sheriff, I would make equally sure the electorate knew about it at the next election.

Lots of chest thumping on here, but I don't intend to be one of the ones who joins the choir silent or lives in the jail cell next to the guy who did me wrong.

 

[OldMarksman]

So someone can rob you and you can't do a damn thing about it but call the police?

Not true.

To my knowledge you can use physical force but not deadly force anywhere, and you can use deadly force if necessary in a few states--Texas at night, probably Georgia, and maybe others.

By the way, the guy is not robbing you. He's stealing. Very key distinction there.

Or just maybe he's committing burglary. More on that later.

What about the guy coming back later and doing something worse to you next time?

There is no state or territory in which it is lawful for a citizen to use deadly force, or any other kind of force, to prevent someone for doing something later. The operative words are imminent and necessary.

The way you explain it, you would probably help them load up the goods they are stealing from you.

?

As of yet, I have not read one word about what you would do in this situation: All you keep saying is what will happen, if I do something to the poor thief...

(1) Dial, (2) File, (3) Stay out of jail.

I have to believe folks, that the law is on the side of the victims to some degree (and if its not, then we are in deep doo doo).

It is. You can defend yourself and family and usually others, prevent unlawful entry if you are inside in many states, and in some places, use deadly force to prevent some kinds of felonies.

I respect the law and I believe that the law is on our side.

Yet you keep implying that you would break the law.

Victims have rights too and we just can't let the bad guys of the world abuse citizens and nothing is ever done about it.

That's probably just about what the prosecutor and the judge would say. When you are referred to as "the defendant", you will also hear the other person described as a "victim".

I just would have to do something besides a phone call in this scenario. But I guess that is the difference between you and me.

Again, you could use reasonable, non-deadly physical force, but that's risky in several ways. I'm not fit enough to risk it. Maybe you are.

Maybe that's the difference between you and me. Maybe it's knowledge of the law. Maybe it's respect for the law. Maybe it's just that I don't want to risk giving up my clean record, gun rights, personal belongings, and/or personal freedom to protect something I would most likely lose anyway.

Note that it is possible that, in Florida, the fact of the perp's being inside the car establishes justification for acting against a forcible felony.

Don't decide that based on lay research. See an attorney and spend $250 or so. Cheap insurance. Also, friends who have taken the Florida CCW course tell me that it is informative.

That still wouldn't mean that shooting would necessarily be a wise choice, if you compare what attorneys fees could amount to with the value of the loss. You might give up the cost of a few Corvettes even if you win.

 

[Kyo]

to the OP: in GA I could shoot him for felony burglary, and trespassing. That no is just the invite to do it. A non compliance is dangerous in my mind because it can mean lots of things. He has someone looking out for him, he knows something you don't, he has a weapon of his own.
technically you can even argue that you really are scared for your life because the guy who sees the gun said no, meaning to a normal person his state of mind is not normal, and a person could reasonably assume he would be dangerous. So, if he got out of the car or even moved while you told him not to, he's pretty much dead.
Thats why you say "don't move" and he says no, and he moves to get something, and you shoot him. and then cops will be there in like 3 minutes.

 

[BillCA]

Okay, before I tell you what my friend's solution was, I'd like to comment on some of the responses. They were enlightening.

We had a only one response that said do nothing -- i.e. call the cops, watch tv until they arrive, file an insurance claim. Surrrre. you would.

A lot of folks indicated the use of some kind of force in a manner that suggests you'd want your "pound o' flesh" outta the guy before letting him go or turning him over to the cops. I can sympathize -- hours of hard work to buy the things you own and some slimeball thinks he can ruin them without true consequences. That's like someone crapping in your livingroom. However, think of the consequences if your use of force just crosses that legal line between "reasonable force" and battery or ADW¹ charges.

I find it interesting that my OP asked "What now?", as in what is your solution? and the majority of the 80-some-odd posts quibble over what the law says you can't do. Very few people were thinking outside the box to solve the problem. The few that did seemed to offer their thoughts in a half-joking manner.

This tells me that when or if a criminal does something very unexpected that is not threatening, most of our members are unable to improvise a solution. Well, other than using some kind of brute force.

A bold or brazen thief? Perhaps. Fortunately, most thugs don't know how the law works for honest & law abiding people. But the few that do know, or have had some "jailhouse training" can be dangerous to good citizens. Three recent cases, one of them here in the SF area, showed that thieves caught in the act, raised their hands, apologized and then simply walking out/away. One (in Oregon) walked off with a $400 impact hammer set while saying "it's illegal to shoot me in the back for just taking property". Frightening.

In this case (#3), the thief revealed that another thief told him not to threaten anyone, but just walk off or tell the guy he can't shoot over mere property. And it had worked for him four times so far! This speaks well of our citizens in that they don't seem to go overboard using force. The thief also risks getting killed or shot by someone ignorant of the way the laws work.

Potential solutions:
Donn_N: My friend did think about taking his stuff into the garage, but that required getting too close to the thief's feet. Or within striking distance of that ratchet. A non-starter solution.

Knee-Knockers: Bats, golf clubs, sticks, etc. on the knees might work, though I think too many people would be overly generous in the application such tools. However, using the edge of a 4-iron or the handle-end of a bat to "bark" the guy's shins several times (painful but not permanently damaging) -- might have gotten him out of the car. But then you'd have a possible fight to deal with.

Dwight55 gets the runner-up award for offering the closest thing to the solution used. The only reason you didn't get first prize was due to the way it was phrased.

The resolution used was, as Dwight55 suggested, ammonia. Dwight suggested ammonia and chlorine bleach which can be deadly and damaging to the lungs.

Since the guy was, from what could be seen, working on getting the GPS unit out, there was plenty of time before he tried to leave. So, walk into the garage, put several shop towels in a mop bucket and pour half a gallon of ammonia on them. In his case, my friend used old baby diaper "polishing rags" which are very absorbent.

Walk up the the car, kick the door into the guy's shin. When he retracts his leg, fling about five ammonia-saturated rags into the car and slam the door shut. Wait. Lean on the door to prevent him from tossing the rags back out easily.² When the thief crawled out of the driver's side, he was ready with some rope to lasso the guy, who offered little resistance. Once controlled, he pulled the rags out of the car and put them slightly upwind of the guy. By the time the cops arrived the thief was relieved to be taken away.

¹ ADW: Assault with a Deadly Weapon
² Most modern cars require ignition-switch power to lower the windows.

 

[Dragon55]

"Officer.. I was standing there watching this guy take apart my car. I asked him to please don't do that and leave please. At this time time he lunged at me with a small tool. I feared for my life so I shot him 3 times. He fell back into the car. That's when I called you guys."

 

[pacerdude]

I would use OC spray to slow him down and maybe save my car. Bill, was the home remedy, lemon juice?

 

[pacerdude]

Another option is a can of wasp spray that can shoot 100 feet... you can pick it up at your neighborhood Wal-Mart.... And a good shot in the face should stop him.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Killing someone is something I would prefer not to do.

Especially over a car stereo. I'm an old guy with lots of insurance, and car stereos keep getting better ever six months. I'll replace it with a better one.

Where I live, killing is only justified in self-defense. In this scenario, this guy is not threatening my life.

Like other's have said, if I kill the guy to defend my property, which I then lose because I have to sell it to make bail, pay a lawyer, and possibly pay fines and jail time, what have I gained?

If the cops are on the way and 911 has an open line going, I'm going to hold the gun on him until the cops arrive.

If the scenario changes, and he starts to walk away, I may be in his path and therefore begin to feel threatened.....but thats a different scenario...

I'm not going to kill a guy to protect my car stereo. I don't even like my car stereo that much...

(And to you guys with all the other options - do you really take pepper spray or wasp spray or impact weapons or other implements out with you when you take out the trash at night? Just wondering... mostly it seems to me that a gunfight is a "come as you are" proposition.)

Bill --

How long did it take your buddy to get the smell of ammonia out of his sort-of-still-new 2008 car interior?

 

[BillCA]

For what it's worth, breaking into a locked car to commit theft or some other crime is called burglary. It varies from state to state, but it's typically some form of felony. However, be sure the car was locked before assuming burglary, since theft from an unlocked car may fall to a misdemeanor theft or "tampering with vehicle".

Kyo: I believe the correct word you want is that someone who doesn't even blink when you're pointing a gun at him is irrational. A rational person could (believe it or not) "fear for his life" with the vehicle owner pointing a gun at him.¹ But if you give him orders, it will be up to you to make sure they are clear and concise and you don't overreact.²

Dragon55: The state of the art in foresnics is quite good, so I wouldn't tell any "tall tales" about his making a lunge, unless he really does so.

pacerdude: Read my post above.

My friend said it's luck for the thief he didn't hit the neighbor's house -- he owns a pair of Irish Wolfhounds that average about 120 pounds each and are somewhat territorial. A pair of them could play "make a wish" with an intruder.

¹ He could fear for his life, but because he is instigating a crime, he lacks the legal right to claim it for self-defense. Unless, of course, you state you will, or attempt to, kill him unlawfully.
² If you tell him "Get out of the car!" and he moves to the other side to exit, he is complying with your command. Shooting him because you lose sight of his hand when he goes to open the door will get you prosecuted (how did you expect him to open the door?)

 

[hogdogs]

Another option is a can of wasp spray that can shoot 100 feet... you can pick it up at your neighborhood Wal-Mart.... And a good shot in the face should stop him.

Actually that is a violation of federal law... Says so right on the label of every type of chemical pest control product...

The misuse statement is a reminder that it is a violation of Federal law to use a product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.

Misuse statement

All registered pesticides, including all end-use and manufacturing-use products, will bear labeling which has the following statement immediately below the Use Classification: “It is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.” Other statements related to misuse may be seen on residential/household use products in addition to the previous general misuse statement:

*

“STOP! – Read the label before using.”
*

“Use only as directed on this label.”
*

“Read label very carefully, including any special requirements which pertain to your growing area.”
*

“Failure to follow all precautions and directions is illegal.”

If application to a human's face is not listed or a warning to avoid contact with skin than you breakin federal law!
Brent

 

[Dragon55]

I live 30 minutes from the top forenSICS school in the world. Forensics in actual practice resembles very little what you see on tv. Someone that was that arrogant or confident or stupid would make me fear for his returning later for even worse acts. This has happened.
In my community in this situation the homeowner would prevail. I could site numerous similar instances where it has. Our LE encourage self protection.

 

[samurai30047]

A lot of jelly spines

I can't believe that a gun oriented site like this attracts sooooo many pacifists. Your property is being stolen and you stand by and do nothing? Calling the police and video taping is basically doing nothing. Reminds me of the towns folk in the movie "High Plains Drifter". Too afraid to do the right thing.
I like the bug spray idea, but your car is getting hosed too. It's still something though and bad guys are probably going to get provoked by that so be ready to deal with a charging felon at that point. I'm fine with that. Pop pop. I feared for my life, yada yada yada.
Car door to the leg is good too, again, minimum use of force to that which is legally allowed. He then gets tired of his knee being force side ways with about 230 pounds of force repeatedly and turns on you. Again Pop pop pop. Bad guys aren't all cowards so expect reaction, especially from intoxicated bad guys. A woman in Plymouth Michigan was beaten almost to death by a would be rapist when she sprayed him with pepper spray. He used a pipe to the head. She survived but didn't have a back up plan and was almost killed. Career criminals are probably sprayed or beaten several times in a career so be ready to go there. Fast.
I think the best so far is the spray, in the left hand, accompanied by gun in the right. Gun held down at your side until immediately after the spray is deployed so as not to mistakenly use IT first. Be sure of your back drop and maybe aim a little low of center mass since usually stress makes people statistically shoot high right. I'd check the laws of the state in question too, I'm just stating what I'd do.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfLRT83S2YQ

 

[skydiver3346]

Dragon55 and Samurai:

I agree 100% with you guys.

As I stated earlier, (letting this guy go) you risk him coming back later for something else. Why, because he saw you watch him stealing and you did nothing..... You now risk another visit by him or his friends and maybe an assault to you or your family member is next??

Me thinks it best to end this situation when it happens. How, I am not 100% sure (from all the responses I got from my posts). However, I can assure you that the bad guy is not just walking away scot free. That's for sure!

I just really got to think on this (call my attorney buddy) and figure it all out. Best to be prepared for exactly what you would do (when and if something like this ever happened to you). Hopefully it never does.

 

[Wildalaska]

"Officer.. I was standing there watching this guy take apart my car. I asked him to please don't do that and leave please. At this time time he lunged at me with a small tool. I feared for my life so I shot him 3 times. He fell back into the car. That's when I called you guys."

I dont know whats worse, the fact that you would post that or the knowledge that some gun owners think that way:barf:

I can't believe that a gun oriented site like this attracts sooooo many pacifists.

I for one am not insulted by the word pacifist, especially in light of the company that implies...like Ghandi and Jesus

WildguessitshowsthatgunownersaregoodfolksAlaska TM

 

[samurai30047]

Pacifists

I like the quote I read here, once. Beware of pacifists, they're willing to sacrifice others for their ideals.

And you are incredibly arrogant to compare yourself with with either Jesus or Ghandi. Come on!

Did you see the link I posted? How did you like the poor womans head wound? She'll never be the same. What if that was your daughter?

Unlike some people, I have to go to work now. I'll be back later.

 

[OldMarksman]

I can't believe that a gun oriented site like this attracts sooooo many pacifists.

Pacifists? How about persons who elect to not assume the risks of getting hurt or killed (not to rehash getting prosecuted or sued) over an item of property that can be replaced?

Some time back, a guy in Texas heard someone doing something around his trailer and went outside with a shotgun to investigate. The perp had a knife.

No, the citizen was not charged or tried for any kind of unlawful act.

He was overcome by an accomplice, stabbed, disarmed, shot, and maimed, and can no longer work as an airline mechanic.

Every single recommendation I've seen from anyone on this forum with a law enforcement background and anyone whom I know to have taken force-on-force training, with one exception that I can recall, is to not go outside at night or at any other time to handle miscreants. Too much risk of ambush. Same thing regarding "clearing a house."

The exception? Well, it came from the OP. However, as much as I respect Bill in California, the pics he posted of his residential layout made it look to me like an ideal place to be accosted and hurt, and others far more qualified than I by virtue of their training and experience pointed that out.

All downside, very little potential upside, IMHO.

Calling the police and video taping is basically doing nothing.

Not if it works and keeps you from getting hurt, killed, or paying for a lawyer.

 

[samurai30047]

Jesus

Jesus tossed the money changers out of the temple when they ****** Him off.