Order of Fit: slide, frame, barrel & bushing

[Unclenick]

Dave,

It is a bond that forms. I remember Russ Carniak speaking of his guns "returning home" when they came back for accessorizing or trade-ups.

Shorts,

I think my middle-aged brain is missing something here. You said the lockup is 0.050" to 0.055" with or without the link, a difference of 0.005". Then you say there is a difference of 0.018-0.020"? Is that what you get pushing the barrel up into the slide with your thumb? Can you clarify what this is a difference to?

One more test to help clear it up:

Coat the link in Magic Marker, then put the link, barrel, try-bushing slide and frame back together with everything lightly oiled. Also lightly oil the assembly pin and insert it through the link, then put the whole gun in the vice again. Put the 3/8" dowel rod back in the barrel and hang enough weight off the end of it to tip the barrel up into battery when the link isn't there (you may have to try this without the link to get the weight right; an empty milk jug with a few cups of water in it works, but be sure the gun is gripped firmly enough in the vice to hold it up.)

Push the slide fully into battery with your left thumb, then let go. Gently place the tip of your index finger at the back of the ejection port so it bridges the slight drop-off from the back of the port to the back of the barrel hood, and is touching both. Use your other hand to carefully sneak the assembly pin out without disturbing the slide position. Did you feel the barrel come up? Now shine a light through the assembly pin hole and tell us whether the bottom edge of the hole in the link remains lined up with it? If you try to sneak the assembly pin back in, does it meet any resistance when it gets past the thickness of the side of the frame and starts to enter the link hole?

If there is any obscuring of the assembly pin hole by the link, push the tip of the assembly pin into the frame just far enough that you feel it kiss the link, but without disturbing it. This is just to keep the link from moving while you perform the next step: Go in through the assembly pin hole on the opposite side of the frame with a straight pin and scribe the perimeter of the assembly pin hole onto the Magic Marker on the link. Pull the whole thing apart and measure how far the scribed line is from the edge of the link hole on the side opposite the web between link holes. Your new link needs that much more web than you have now. You also have short link lugs if these test symptoms happen, but let's not fret that yet. The first step is getting the link length established.

The other approach, if you have a lockup discrepancy and can't get the measurement satisfactorily, is to buy a set of long links and just keep trying them larger and larger until you find one that prevents the gun from passing Dave's gravity test, then back up one size. The only snag that can arise is that a really long link (should your lockup require it) may be so long that it swings the back faces of the link lugs into the frame before the barrel is fully in counter battery. You can identify this condition by assembling the link, barrel, frame and assembly pin (no slide), and observing whether the barrel still seats snuggly back against the frame? If not, and a gap appears between the frame and the underside of the barrel at the rear, then the back faces of the link lugs have to be filed forward until it fits.

Nick

 

[tex_n_cal]

Shorts, the barrel ramp is at most a few thousandths ahead of the frame ramp. Bear in mind that is an aluminum .45 LW Commander frame, so the frame ramp is cut deeper than a normal Colt .38 Super/9mm frame ramp.

It's not the 1/32 of an inch Dave suggests - and that's not meant to disagree somebody who's built more 1911's than I've ever looked at When working on it I could not find a reference that listed the acceptable case head exposure for a 9mm case, so I had to proceed cautiously. I haven't shot it in a couple years, but I recall it working okay for a fun gun.

The idea behind it was to have a multi-caliber 1911, where you could just swap magazines & top ends, between .45 & 9mm. It needs a better barrel and sights, and a correct .45 top end, and then it will be pretty sweet.

 

[Shorts]

I just did a litle more work so, let me respond to the questions first.

I think my middle-aged brain is missing something here. You said the lockup is 0.050" to 0.055" with or without the link, a difference of 0.005". Then you say there is a difference of 0.018-0.020"? Is that what you get pushing the barrel up into the slide with your thumb? Can you clarify what this is a difference to?

Sorry, I took a leap and didn't bring everybody along This was a check from Dave he sent me off forum (Dave I hope I'm notgiving away a secret!). When I have the link installed, I measured the barrel hood to top of slide with slide close, then measured again with it 1/4" open (to unlock the barrel). I then subtracted the two and got a result. I did these measurements, both with the link and without the link. When I did these measurements, I placed the depth guage of my dial caliper at the front of the ejection port/hood.

That was what I meant by .050 w/o link and .055" with link. I was thinking that these two should be close to the same with and without the link. Dave is that correct? I don't know why I got that idea, but please correct me. I'm driving myself crazy.

Then you say there is a difference of 0.018-0.020"? Is that what you get pushing the barrel up into the slide with your thumb? Can you clarify what this is a difference to?

The difference is from the measurement of a closed slide (barrel hood to top of slide), both with the link (~.113") and without (~.096").



As I mentioned at the top, I did some more filing in the rearmost barrel lug slot. I markered the first lug in the slide and slid the barrel in, then pressed down and pressed down and "see-sawed" the barrel to mark the high spots. I ended up doing quite a bit of this. I mentioned earlier (somewhere, I think in an email to Dave) that the barrel was not sitting flat in the slide. Somewhere around that first lug it was doing a see-saw motion front to back. So I took a dowel wrapped with 220 paper and proceeded to even the slide lugs a little more, as well as did a little polishing. So, I got the barrel touched up enough that is it pretty much completely seated. Now if you'rescratcing your head wondering why I did this, 1) it just didn't seem correct to have it move like that while trying to get positive engagement, and 2) I refereced our GI, it didn't do that.

As for:

One more test to help clear it up:

I'll go ahead and get started on that now and post results in a bit.

The other approach, if you have a lockup discrepancy and can't get the measurement satisfactorily, is to buy a set of long links and just keep trying them larger and larger until you find one that prevents the gun from passing Dave's gravity test, then back up one size. The only snag that can arise is that a really long link (should your lockup require it) may be so long that it swings the back faces of the link lugs into the frame before the barrel is fully in counter battery. You can identify this condition by assembling the link, barrel, frame and assembly pin (no slide), and observing whether the barrel still seats snuggly back against the frame? If not, and a gap appears between the frame and the underside of the barrel at the rear, then the back faces of the link lugs have to be filed forward until it fits.

I was just thinking I should get a set and see what that does. If the link lugs hit the frame, not a problem, I have files and I know how to use 'em

We check the fit by pushing down on the barrel hood. If it is a solid feel when you do that , the gun will be accurate.

I just tried this after doing the filing work. When I hold the rear of the slide and push down on the hood, there is no movement. However, if I push down on the hood without holding the slide, the barrel moves down .015". I took this measurement at the rearmost part of the barrel hood and top of slide.


tex-n-cal, I wasn't sure if the 1/32" is specifically for the 1911 platform or of the caliber changes this at all. But everything I read states to have the 1/32". So figured to get as close to this as possible.

 

[Shorts]

UncleNick, I just did your test. I liked that one, my newbie eyes could read the results The link does need to be longer. The barrel moved up when I removed the slide stop. It did have resistance on it as I slid it out of the hole.

 

[Unclenick]

Shorts,

Good. Mystery solved. The approach of pushing down on the hood usually works, but assumes that the assembly pin isn't held up against the underside (horizontal portion of the slope) of the link lugs by the short link. When it is, you end up just pushing down on the pin via the lugs.

Now we'll have to start thinking about some weld build-up of your lugs. The gun can be tested just with the long link, so it isn't show stopper, but getting the lugs to fit with the new link is needed for best accuracy.

Nick

 

[Shorts]

I went to the gun shop off the island today, guy said they had 2 link kits...the Wilson's and Kings. I said I'd go pick one up, and I opted for the King's since their longest was longer than Wilson's. Well I get there and there are only 3 links on the package, I need the 4th (.290"). I say this to the guy and he says "uhh well, then I'll discount the price for you, I'm sure you'll only need the #1 or #2 anyway" Uhhh no. So I take the kit anyway, knowing darn well they weren't going to fit, but I didn't want to waste the guy's time. Heck I drove a freakin' hour one way! Maybe the moon and stars would align and I'd get lucky. I hate confrontation initiated by me.

I get home, link things up with the #3 (.287"), yeah right. There is still a bit of link showing when doing that last test from UncleNick. Better than the standard, but not enough.


When will I learn?

Anyway, what should I do now/next?

 

[Dave Sample]

Hang in there, Shorts. You are learning more than the average bear.

I sent a gun back today to Colorado with another butchered Clark ramped 38 Super barrel and a flat spot slide stop. This guy is in the AH Club 100! I didn't replace this one because I am tired of that stuff and the gun is not for sale. The owner knows what it is and does not care at this point. He just wants a 5" 38 Super Shooter to plink with and it will do that. Clark barrels are a nighmare to fit and this one was badly out of round. The last Wilson we chopped that I installed 18 years ago was right on the money. Go Figure?

I guess I missed the LW lower end somewhere along the line. I thought it was just a steel officers lower end. Makes no difference as far as feed ramps are concerned. Every 9mm, 38 Super, 45 ACP, 10mm Centaur, 400 Cor Bon, I have ever built had the same feed ramp to barrel throat gap but what do I know? I know they all ran and are still running. Maybe I am just lucky?

Most 1911's will fire just fine standing on the link. It is not the best, but it works. What matters is that the gun comes back from recoil in the exact same place after each shot and it tight when the round lites off. This is the way factory guns are set up and you can take any stock factory gun and you will rarely see any marks on the lower lugs from the slide stop pin.

This is a 9mm Belly gun, good for killing a perp at from 3 to 7 yards. I think in my eagerness to help you, I lose sight of that. I used to build Bullseye Guns that took 1500-2000 rounds of firing before the slide would go into battery without a push from your thumb. EAGLE III, my 400 Cor Bon is set up tight like that and we have cycled the slide several hundred times now and have not even fired it yet. I am looking for three inches at 50 yards with that one, if I can get a magic load that will work.

I am different about barrels than most in this business, and all I have ever used is Fred Kart's barrels for a good many years. I made my bucks elsewhere and never had time to mess with other stuff like the Big Boys do. When I build a gun I want it to be the best. Period.

We are faced with a 45 lower and a 9mm upper and that is not an easy deal. We are using used parts, new parts, old parts, and weird parts.

We will "Get R Dun!"

 

[Shorts]

I did completely assemble the gun, recoil system and bushing and all. Much of it was out of "dang it, work!". At the gun shop, I saw all the pretty guns. I get home and see my pile of parts, talk about a big gap!

Anyhow, I had quite a time fighting the recoil spring and plug squished in the frame as I tried to get the wrench pressed down to fit around the bushing so I could lock it. LOL Heaven forbid I need to ever dis/assemble that thing in public, talk about spectacle If you guys ever want a challenge, assemble your pistol single handed with a tight bushing

After getting the gun together, I tried cycling the slide to feel it work. The recoil spring was tough. I guess I got use to messing around with the gun and no spring. I installed an empty magazine so that I could check lockback and the slide stop. The slide stop seemed to not want to catch the notch on the slide. I'm not sure if I was getting the slide far enough back with my weakling muscles for the notch to catch. The edges are new, so they might be a little unforgiving about engagement.

The slide went forward into lockup. I dropped the slide on an empty chamber and it was nice and strong. Better be, all the hoopla with the spring. I even got greedy and installed a round in the magazine and dropped the slide on it. The round chambered just fine. Upon ejecting the round, I inspected the impact point on the barrel and bullet. The impact was about 1/3 way up the ramp at below the nose of the bullet. These Metalform mags actually hold the round up pretty high. Just high enough that the bottom edge of the ejector leaves a scratch on the case as the bullet slides past it into the chamber.

As for how any of this will work during battery, I don't know, I just wanted to see it in one piece.

 

[Shorts]

How much headspace is acceptable for the 9mm?

 

[Jim Watson]

Don't worry about it. If a cartridge will chamber with the head at or slightly below the hood, you have adequate headspace. If it drops way below the hood, you have excessive headspace; if it stands proud you have insufficient headspace. In the latter case you could round up a reamer and fix it; otherwise it is what it is.

You are getting a lot of good advice from Dave and Nick but be aware that you are working with used parts. There is not likely a whole lot of extra metal to be cutting on to get a tight fit. A long link will tighten up the barrel lockup but can cause other problems. A friend once set me up with a long link which tightened up my old Commander considerably and improved accuracty a bit. But feeding went out the window and I had to revert to the stock Colt link and let it rattle.

 

[Dave Sample]

Jim is right on about barrel links. I do not like or use long or short links, largely because I don't have to in my work. Clark barrels used to have to be linked up to work right, but I never liked that way of doing things. I think she has got her slide to frame fit and now needs to work on getting used to that tough spring and recoil system in the Commander size top end. I need to know the spring weight you used, Shorts. It sounds to me like you need a 13-14-15 lb Commander recoil spring in this build. but who knows? I have never done a 9mm Commander before!

Keep up the good work! I am Impressed!

 

[Shorts]

The case head is about dead even with the hood.

Dave, the recoil spring is a 16lb. It's heavy as all get out. The fullsize GI is easier to rack and lock back. It sure isn't the grip I have on them, they're both steady. I was thinking of possibly trying a lighter recoil spring. I read tex-n-cal ended up using a 12ish (? correct me if I'm wrong tex-n-cal) spring on his 9mm Commander after trying several weights. After cleaning up the mainspring housing and innards, I left the original spring in there as a starting point, especially since I'm still doodling with the original sear and hammer. I do have a set of reduced weight mainsprings from Wolff that I intend to use to fine tune. It seems recoil springs would be of use as well. Should I go ahead and pick up a set of reduced weight springs?

One big step in progress I made today was getting the barrel ramp scoot back. I was pretty nervous about it, but I spent the morning reading and figuring out what I needed to do. I started off with the round needle file, then switced to different half round type files depending on what I needed shaped. After getting the ramp formed up the way I needed, I had to blend the material. I tried a papered dowel, but that wasn't going to cut it. So, out with the Dremel and the finest sanding drum thingy I had. I gently touched the edges, staying well clear of the top breakover angle. That was one area I didn't need to be ambitious about. After blending and polishing (180, 220, 320, 400), I assembled the pistol and loaded the mag w/ 3rounds. I pulled the slide back, let it go and.... JAM! The round kida stopped itself about halfway +. I tried 2 more times to pull the slide and release, but it was stuck. I disassembled everything and vised up the barrel. I decided to lay even that last hair of material between the breakover angle and what I had already done. I blended again with the edge of the dremel sanding band. Then polished everything up again. I assembled the gun, inserted 3 rounds in the mag, pulled the slide, and SLAM. Loaded. Pulled the slide to cycle, round ejected, round loaded, closed. Again, for the 3rd bullet, round ejected, round chambered. Ahhhhhhhh

I knowt his isn't the best job with the Dremel, so please go easy on me These pics are at 400 grit. I finished up the working ramp with 600. The wierdness on the right and left sides is due to the extractor bevel being already cut out on the right side, so, I didn't get the shape even.

Before:

After (I'll get one posted wit the new ramp) I still don't have the 1/32 gap, but the ramp is not overhanging the frame ramp anymore. I tried to stay as conservative as I could with the ramping, yet still get feeding. I didn'thave much room to work with as if I did cut back to the 1/32 gap, the angle from the bottom to the top of the ramp would have been a steep cliff:

And for soon to be range test anticipation:

Guys, THANK YOU so much for being so patient with me and working me through this build, on forum and off. Although it's not done yet, I definitely couldn't have gotten this far and felt comfortable with the work without yall. I owe yall dinner! Anyone going to be in Whidbey anytime soon???

 

[tex_n_cal]

Your Dremel work is way neater than mine

One observation - some of the ammo out there fell nicely into my no-name Ebay aftermarket barrel and headspaced correctly. Other brands and bullets, however had longer bullet ogives and as a result were hitting the rifling before going fully into battery. This problem has the potential to raise pressures rapidly, so I bought a 9mm finish chambering reamer and 9mm headspace gauges, prior to reaming the chamber and barrel a bit deeper.

Before you call the headspace good, drop a variety of ammo into the chamber and make sure all the rounds you plan to shoot fully enter the chamber.

Lastly, when shooting mine with Win white box 115 gr ball ammo, the cases tended to dribble out of the chamber, but ejected quite positively with +P ammo. A 12-13 lb recoil spring is probably a good starting point.

 

[dale taylor]

Shorts, thank you for great pictures and an excellent learnng experience. dalrltaylor@att.net

 

[Shorts]

tex-n-cal, I'll do a check with the ammo I use. The ones I used for the hand cycling were Fed. American Eagle. I didn't see any rifling marks on the bullet when I inspected them after ejection. They seem to be seating consistently in the chamber. I'll pick up some other ammo too test out as well. I'd rather use PMC at the range anyway. I've veered away from WWB as their .380 fmj is a flat nosed bullet and it ALWAYS jams my Beretta 86...and jams as in EVERY round It's wierd though, JHPs feed fine through it. Which is what I need it to feed when and if I should ever need it.

Dale, hopefully I didn't do anyone a disservice with my wacky build and troubleshooting lol People reading this might be sayin "Geez lady, can't you figure out how to fit your barrel?"

So am I about ready to take this project out to the range and see if it will run? I won't be doing any bullseye shooting since I don't have the sights on yet, but I'd like to see how it runs. I did perform all the safety checks on it and it passed. I got no hammer drop, thumb and grip safeties are functional.

Oh hey, I'm also tossing the idea of naming this pistol. I need to come up with something to call it. Now I can't just say "my gun" because, I gots two of um now

And once I get this project cleaned up, I'm going to make a holster for it. I haven't touched my leatherwork since my last Beretta holster, which came out really to my liking. I'm going to use the same pattern for this pistol, but maybe with less cant and cross draw. This gun is STRICTLY range gun until it deems itself utterly reliable and safe for carry.

 

[Dave Sample]

Headspace/Norinco factory triple chromed barrel.

The barrel hood was .003 from the breechface so this proved to be OK. If the round is in the chamber flush with the hood, and the hood is close to the breechface, you are good to go. I never used gauges because a good factory round tells me everything I need to know.

Tha same barrel after I cleaned up the throat a little with a craytex tip on Mr. Dremel. Note the absence of the sharp edge at the top of the throat. This is where the rounds hang up.

Checking the primer hits after the test fire with the CMC trigger group installed.

Checking for dented cases during extraction. No sign of any problem here.

Target at 5 yards (15 feet) to see if all is well at gunfighting distance.
This $225.00 China Girl passed with flying colors afer a forum member on another forum said it was Junque. It is a very nice 1911 now and is waiting at Gunsite for the next time Cory fires up the tanks.

Here is the 15 yard test target which it also passed with flying colors. I guess I still know how to tweak these neat, cheap, guns. I will use it as a throw away carry gun when I get it back from bluing. This one had the usual flanging of the upper lugs and needed to be relinked with a .278 standard link (Wilson Number 3) which gave me the center hits on the primers. I also found a tight bushing in the parts bin that is as good as a NM so it will be even more accurate than before I prepped it.

Keep up the good work ,Monica. Brownells sells those little craytex tips that I purchase 25 at a time. Gray or red work good. Red is a little more aggressive. Be sure to get the larger mandrels for them.

 

[Shorts]

Thanks for the pictures Dave. I remember the post about the Norinco and how 'bad' it shoots. Goes to show what a little skill can do.

Yall know what? I wanna do it again I'm missing not having something to work on and fit. I guess I can go into the kitchen and practice parkerizing some angle iron I picked up for my vise jaws. I already started perking up at seeing slides and frames I don't think my husband, though overseas, could take another build right away. Yesterday on the phone I got, "Sweetie, what was the charge from a Wilson Combat?"

Actually, once I verify the gun is in running order, (or soon) I would like to blend the rest of the rear of slide to be even with the frame. I'm not concerned with the corners as I am with the bulge there at the back where the extractor tunnel is. How do I go about sanding this down? Files? Rough sandaper? Angle grinder? (I'm kidding Besides, I don't have one yet.

 

[Handy]

Hey Shorts,

Terrific job. A straight .45 1911 would have been project enough, but glad to see you worked it out with this Frankenstein.


At the range, I'd recommend taking a variety of recoil springs (which might make all the difference between it jamming constantly and running smoothly) and some sandbags and bullseye targets.

If the gun runs, you might as well check to see if it groups from the bench, and where those groups are at 25 yards (relative to the point of aim). Armed with that data you'll be able to get some educated guesses on appropriate sight heights. (And if it doesn't group, you'll know not to bother with the sights until it's fixed.)


BTW, I may have missed it, but I understood that 9mm 1911s need/use a longer ejector. Did you change your's out, or going to give it a whirl first? The lighter slide might make up for it, anyway.



Overall, great looking gun. Like a Star BM, but made of nicer steel.

 

[Shorts]

Thank you I can't just do it like everybody else, I gotta be eccentric.

BTW, I may have missed it, but I understood that 9mm 1911s need/use a longer ejector. Did you change your's out, or going to give it a whirl first? The lighter slide might make up for it, anyway.

The ejector is the stock unit that came with the frame (that I know of). Although it is a .45, I believe the Officer's used extended ejectors to accomodate the short slide cycle. So I left it on there. If it works, it's good. If not, then I'll go ahead and replace it. During hand cycling the rounds ejected well. It tossed the rounds out the 4-5oclock position. I may need to file an angle on there to fine tune ejection location.

It's cold and raining right now, otherwise I'd be standing on the range line, nervous and antsy with a loaded 9mm. Then again, the firing line is covered.....

 

[Dave Sample]

The ejector is an extended one already and may work fine. It should be off set like a 38 Super/9mm toward the center more, but time at the range will tell. 38/9mm ejectors are different but sometimes we get lucky. It is a good point to ponder, though.

I blend in the back end of a gun like this with a Dremel and a sanding drum, then some Craytex tips, then some filing, and then some more polishing. The sparks and the metal go bye bye quick, but I do not advise this for a first time builder. Small files and sanding sticks will do it. I file against the marks left by the sanding drums and end up with sort of a cross hatch effect, and then smooth it down from there. This is one of the last things I do. I leave the extractor in while I do this and the ejector has to be in place, too.

I hope you ordered night sights for a Commander size slide, Shorts. If you got a government size front sight, it will be too tall. Officers front sights are shorter yet! We can't file them down to point of aim like we can fixed sights.

Different Srokes for different pistoles