I think the rails are a hair off. I will do a thorough check. Thanks for the writeup and diagram of the rails. That gives me a good picture of what to do. There were some imperfections inside of the dustcover, so I smoothed those out. I did a check and I don't have any more rubbing there in that spot. Another thing, might be adding to it, the dustcover sides are not the same width. I'll get a picture of that later on after the 4th festivities.
Order of Fit: slide, frame, barrel & bushing
- Thread starter Shorts
- Start date
Dave Sample
Moderator
I have responded to you before I went to the Forum. Great help from UncleNick. You are way ahead of me! Have Happy Forth of July!
Shorts,
Do post the picture. If I get time, I'll try to make up a drawing of the angled rail edge effect. It's not something I've seen mentioned in the books and manuals, but it certainly affects consistency of performance to have one-side contact sometimes and not others. I'll also see if I can get time during the week to put something together on the sear angles. I did a finite element analysis of this some time back and the dynamics are interesting (to engineers, anyway), but the bottom line is the human element of the feel of the trigger.
The late Col. George Nonte nicely divided accuracy work into Mechanical Accuracy and Practical Accuracy. The former, for the 1911, is the fitup of barrel, bushing, slide, frame, and link and link lugs (the things that would make a gun accurate from a machine rest). The latter consists of sights, grip panels and trigger (the things that make it user-friendly). I think he had the division of principles right.
Nick
Do post the picture. If I get time, I'll try to make up a drawing of the angled rail edge effect. It's not something I've seen mentioned in the books and manuals, but it certainly affects consistency of performance to have one-side contact sometimes and not others. I'll also see if I can get time during the week to put something together on the sear angles. I did a finite element analysis of this some time back and the dynamics are interesting (to engineers, anyway), but the bottom line is the human element of the feel of the trigger.
The late Col. George Nonte nicely divided accuracy work into Mechanical Accuracy and Practical Accuracy. The former, for the 1911, is the fitup of barrel, bushing, slide, frame, and link and link lugs (the things that would make a gun accurate from a machine rest). The latter consists of sights, grip panels and trigger (the things that make it user-friendly). I think he had the division of principles right.
Nick
Dave Sample
Moderator
I think those pictures are almost too good, Shorts. Wow.
This is what the factories call tolerances and most dust covers are not the same on both sides. This looks like a Colt Lower and you can make it work.
Nick can be of more help than I can on the sear angles and hammer hooks. I have my hammers like this one cut square on a mill with a carbide flat end mill and I have a Wilson sear jig that I use to stone the sear that has the angle I want to use and is never changed. I do not bother with that stuff any more because Chip has a hammer and sear that is better than I can do already done and that is what I use now. I don't have time for those two day trigger jobs that still weren't great but had to be settled for. Since this is a learning experience all I can do here with those parts is wish you luck and hope you can make them work OK. Hang in there, Shorts. This is going to get interesting!
This is what the factories call tolerances and most dust covers are not the same on both sides. This looks like a Colt Lower and you can make it work.
Nick can be of more help than I can on the sear angles and hammer hooks. I have my hammers like this one cut square on a mill with a carbide flat end mill and I have a Wilson sear jig that I use to stone the sear that has the angle I want to use and is never changed. I do not bother with that stuff any more because Chip has a hammer and sear that is better than I can do already done and that is what I use now. I don't have time for those two day trigger jobs that still weren't great but had to be settled for. Since this is a learning experience all I can do here with those parts is wish you luck and hope you can make them work OK. Hang in there, Shorts. This is going to get interesting!
Dave, I think I am going to order the McCormick sear and hammer. But I'm going to tool with this sear and hammer to see if I can get it to work, for a little practice. I went ahead today and ordered a reduced pak of mainsprings from Wolff. Not sure which will work the best, but out of the three, I can get close.
Jammer Six
New member
Shorts, I went around and around with three sets of McCormick stuff.
The bottom line is that they aren't made to spec, and they are more difficult to fit because of it.
The other thing I learned is that the set that's sold as the "Wilson Value Line" is the same as the McCormick stuff.
I did it all in public, and wrote more than you would ever want to know about it here.
There are good people in that thread, people who know about trigger jobs, and will tell you what you need to know to do them right.
You go, and let us watch!
The bottom line is that they aren't made to spec, and they are more difficult to fit because of it.
The other thing I learned is that the set that's sold as the "Wilson Value Line" is the same as the McCormick stuff.
I did it all in public, and wrote more than you would ever want to know about it here.
There are good people in that thread, people who know about trigger jobs, and will tell you what you need to know to do them right.
You go, and let us watch!
Dean Taylor
Inactive
Jammer,
You are welcome to try any of my 1911s. Several have CMC trigger, sears, hammer and disconnectors. They are better than or equal to any of the other systems I have in other 1911s.
Shorts - good luck and have fun with your project. I suggest you pay most attention to those giving advice who post with their real name and location.
Dean
deanrtaylor@att.net
410-952-7848
You are welcome to try any of my 1911s. Several have CMC trigger, sears, hammer and disconnectors. They are better than or equal to any of the other systems I have in other 1911s.
Shorts - good luck and have fun with your project. I suggest you pay most attention to those giving advice who post with their real name and location.
Dean
deanrtaylor@att.net
410-952-7848
Hunter Customs
New member
Hello Shorts,
I will not tell anyone how to spend their money but I will say when it comes to trigger group parts or any parts for that matter the cost of using top shelf parts over the cheap parts is money well spent. Top shelf parts will be good quality tool steel, they cost more but they are not MIM.
As for lapping a frame and slide I like 38-900 and finish with 38-1200. A slide lapped to the frame this way will feel like it's rolling on ball bearings.
Good luck with your project gun.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
I will not tell anyone how to spend their money but I will say when it comes to trigger group parts or any parts for that matter the cost of using top shelf parts over the cheap parts is money well spent. Top shelf parts will be good quality tool steel, they cost more but they are not MIM.
As for lapping a frame and slide I like 38-900 and finish with 38-1200. A slide lapped to the frame this way will feel like it's rolling on ball bearings.
Good luck with your project gun.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
I originally slated the McCormick sear and hammer as the parts to purchase for this project. I took them off my Brownell's order until after I received the lower to see what I did and didn't need. But, if this lower is 20yrs old like I think it is, fresh new parts couldn't hurt.
I had read a lot of grumbling about MIM parts. But while reading them, I also read "show me where they failed and have caused so much trouble for you". So, I'm in the middle and probably in the position where I should just see for myself which parts work and which don't. It's tough when there are differing opinions amongst the ranks. Although, I feel confident in those I tend to lean towards.
Jammer Six, I read most of your tread, a lot of reading I do need to go back and finish it.
My thinking on the aftermarket parts, regardless if they're in spec or not, the ones I have here are more than likely not either. In fact, I know they're not in great working order because I tootled with the lower befor I disassembled it. So, new parts or old parts, they will need adjusting.
I had read a lot of grumbling about MIM parts. But while reading them, I also read "show me where they failed and have caused so much trouble for you". So, I'm in the middle and probably in the position where I should just see for myself which parts work and which don't. It's tough when there are differing opinions amongst the ranks. Although, I feel confident in those I tend to lean towards.
Jammer Six, I read most of your tread, a lot of reading
I do need to go back and finish it. My thinking on the aftermarket parts, regardless if they're in spec or not, the ones I have here are more than likely not either. In fact, I know they're not in great working order because I tootled with the lower befor I disassembled it. So, new parts or old parts, they will need adjusting.
Dave Sample
Moderator
When you decided to enter the World of Pistolsmithing, you made a decision to build a gun the way you want it and that is fine with me.
I am used to working with high end parts that have the holes in the lower end in the right place for what we do. Years ago, I measured the holes in 21 Colt lower ends and every one of them was different. This is where the "Trigger Work" skills come in and the hard road to make inferior parts work OK. None of us will ever use the "High End" trigger compoments again because they are not easy to do without a mill and years of training. I have installed three of these trigger groups personally and would never spend the money for them again because they add nothing to the 1911's we work on here. I can understand Bob"s advice because it is not his money and he has to back up his work and tell his customers what wonderful parts he uses. I agree with that 100% for him. I am not going to spend three times the money for parts that I have to re-cut on a mill and then stone on a sear jig. That ain't me.
I want a 1911 trigger to be safe and break clean at about 3 1/2 to 5 lbs. I like a heavier pull on my personal guns but that is because I do not sit around and dry fire them and think how wonderful they feel. I want them to go 100,000 rounds before anything goes bad and so far, so good. That is why I like the hardest parts that I can find for these little machines.
There is one more thing. Chip McCormick is a personal friend of mine and I like all of his stuff. he is one of the most likable and honest men I know. The other "High End Parts Guys" will make you anything you want, charge you an arm and a leg, and after you revise it, it is good stuff. Too good for poor old me.
Hey! Who's those guys and gals with Dave! Man , am I glad I quit those donuts!
I am used to working with high end parts that have the holes in the lower end in the right place for what we do. Years ago, I measured the holes in 21 Colt lower ends and every one of them was different. This is where the "Trigger Work" skills come in and the hard road to make inferior parts work OK. None of us will ever use the "High End" trigger compoments again because they are not easy to do without a mill and years of training. I have installed three of these trigger groups personally and would never spend the money for them again because they add nothing to the 1911's we work on here. I can understand Bob"s advice because it is not his money and he has to back up his work and tell his customers what wonderful parts he uses. I agree with that 100% for him. I am not going to spend three times the money for parts that I have to re-cut on a mill and then stone on a sear jig. That ain't me.
I want a 1911 trigger to be safe and break clean at about 3 1/2 to 5 lbs. I like a heavier pull on my personal guns but that is because I do not sit around and dry fire them and think how wonderful they feel. I want them to go 100,000 rounds before anything goes bad and so far, so good. That is why I like the hardest parts that I can find for these little machines.
There is one more thing. Chip McCormick is a personal friend of mine and I like all of his stuff. he is one of the most likable and honest men I know. The other "High End Parts Guys" will make you anything you want, charge you an arm and a leg, and after you revise it, it is good stuff. Too good for poor old me.
Hey! Who's those guys and gals with Dave! Man , am I glad I quit those donuts!
Jammer Six
New member
The important information about McCormick sear and hammer geometry was pointed out by Chuck Rogers.
I spent more money and learned more about the 1911 during that thread than anything I've done before or since.
I spent more money and learned more about the 1911 during that thread than anything I've done before or since.
Hunter Customs
New member
I have all types of customers that I build guns for, law enforcement who stake their lives on the guns I build, CCW holders that stake their lives on the guns I build, competition shooters, and folks that just enjoy good quality guns. They all agree on using the best parts available. I could never and never will advise anyone in good faith to use cheap parts. It's true that quality parts need fitting but then again trigger jobs are part of pistolsmithing. As for the 100,000 round test that's where competition shooting comes in, as it's the competition shooters that shoot the large amounts of ammo every year that will prove how well parts are made. These are the people that test the parts to see what works. I know not one serious competition shooter that pays to have a gun built that will use MIM parts.
Now as for name dropping meaning anything or having pictures taken with someone, my oldest grandson who is eleven shot the Area 3 match this last weekend. He was squaded with some of the biggest names in the shooting world. Now this don't mean a thing except that he had the chance to shoot with some of the best shooters in the world and we both had the chance to meet some very nice folks.
As for Chip being a nice guy, I'm sure he is I like his mags.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
Now as for name dropping meaning anything or having pictures taken with someone, my oldest grandson who is eleven shot the Area 3 match this last weekend. He was squaded with some of the biggest names in the shooting world. Now this don't mean a thing except that he had the chance to shoot with some of the best shooters in the world and we both had the chance to meet some very nice folks.
As for Chip being a nice guy, I'm sure he is I like his mags.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
Dave Sample
Moderator
I use Ed Brown Hammer Struts. So far, so good. I like Chip"s, but don't use them. The strut is important to the geometry in a trigger group, but don't quote me. I use what works best. Bob Hunter and I always will be light years apart. He is in business and I am not. That makes a big difference, maybe.
As for Chuck, last time I knew he was using Wilson hammers but I don't know what he uses now. We do not talk and have't for years. I know he knows what's what in a 1911.
Some people have a natural affinity for messing things up. The parts people love them. I have two factory barrels here that a very well know Gunsmith riuned. That takes real talent to destroy a drop in factory barrel. I am not that good yet.
As for Chuck, last time I knew he was using Wilson hammers but I don't know what he uses now. We do not talk and have't for years. I know he knows what's what in a 1911.
Some people have a natural affinity for messing things up. The parts people love them. I have two factory barrels here that a very well know Gunsmith riuned. That takes real talent to destroy a drop in factory barrel. I am not that good yet.
Well, I picked up my Craftsman vise and set of needle files. Those things are awesome. I just about have the bushing fit to the slide, I just need to turn it and lock it in. There was some clearance issues with the locking tab and the slot in the slide. Even though the bushing was fully seated, the locking tab wasn't clear of the slot wall. Now, do I reduce the top edge on that tab enough so that it does fit? I am aware that the fit between the two need to be snug. Should I leave the horizontal edge of the tab slightly in favor of "uneven" so that as I rotate the bushing it gets snug? Or all the way even?
I've also started on the slide and barrel fit. I polished the breechface and disconnector track. Although they are smooth, you can still see the tool marks. I measured the barrel hood and needed to narrow it, so I filed a little off the sides and got things centered. I also had side battery on the barrel face, so I filed them down to clearance the slide shoulders. When those were fit, I polished the faces. When doing my tests, I marked the barrel surfaces with a black sharpie. Not the coolest and mybe not the best method, it's what I had available, but it worked just fine for me to see any high spots.
Alright, I have to head out. Sorry no pics today but I will get things rolling after tomorrow when I can devote my full attention to this. The barrel still neds work in the slide and frame. Any wisdoms would sure be appraciated.
I've also started on the slide and barrel fit. I polished the breechface and disconnector track. Although they are smooth, you can still see the tool marks. I measured the barrel hood and needed to narrow it, so I filed a little off the sides and got things centered. I also had side battery on the barrel face, so I filed them down to clearance the slide shoulders. When those were fit, I polished the faces. When doing my tests, I marked the barrel surfaces with a black sharpie. Not the coolest and mybe not the best method, it's what I had available, but it worked just fine for me to see any high spots.
Alright, I have to head out. Sorry no pics today but I will get things rolling after tomorrow when I can devote my full attention to this. The barrel still neds work in the slide and frame. Any wisdoms would sure be appraciated.
Dave Sample
Moderator
I use the "Captain Eagle Smear Fit" sometimes for bushings like this. I put the slide in a vice with the bushing intalled with the barrel in place and the whole thing is smeared with JB Bore Compound. Then I simply use my Big Kings Bushing wrench and turn it back and forth until it gets hot and turns easily but still it very tight. It works for me!
I don't presume to know as much as Dave or Chuck about the 1911, I learn from both of them as I am proud to call each of the two my friend. (Not name dropping Bob, it's just a fact.)
I can see the differences in the geometry that Chuck points out, there is no denying it. I have used original Colt hammers several times and like them, and will soon be trying some Wilson hammers also. I also am interestred in George Smith's (EGW) trigger group and am placing an order early next week there gathering parts for two customs on the books. I have also used the Yost-Bonitz group and it is in a full custom that's out getting prepped and blued right now.
I also know about the CMC parts. We average about a dozen and a half of these trigger groups a year with new students that have never built or worked on pistols before, and have had no trouble with them, period. There is no denying that they work, and I have a personal pistol with over 5000 rounds through it plus lord knows how much dry firing from me and people who look at the pistol. Chips parts have always served us well, and the company has always supported us wholey. (No Bob, it's not a name drop or a random pic, Chip and Ray are quite good friends, so was/is Armond, unfortunately he isn't there anymore, and he owe's me lunch!)
Interestingly enough, this is practically, probably identically(not sure) the same trigger group that Kimber uses. They sell about 50,000 copies a year, and relatively speaking, have few problems that I am aware of. I've jsut never seen a hammer and sear set break from CMC or Kimber, but I know I only see a relatively small amount of firearms.
Where am I headed with this? For a first time builder like Shorts, who is doing an admirable write-up and super photo's (by the way, what camera are you using? I'm jealous and just gotta know) the CMC parts are quite economical, have a great track record, and if you can resist not fixing what is not broken, will seve you well. All you need to do is cut a relief angle, insure even contact on both hammer hooks, and then try to wear them out. It will take quite some time.
I can see the differences in the geometry that Chuck points out, there is no denying it. I have used original Colt hammers several times and like them, and will soon be trying some Wilson hammers also. I also am interestred in George Smith's (EGW) trigger group and am placing an order early next week there gathering parts for two customs on the books. I have also used the Yost-Bonitz group and it is in a full custom that's out getting prepped and blued right now.
I also know about the CMC parts. We average about a dozen and a half of these trigger groups a year with new students that have never built or worked on pistols before, and have had no trouble with them, period. There is no denying that they work, and I have a personal pistol with over 5000 rounds through it plus lord knows how much dry firing from me and people who look at the pistol. Chips parts have always served us well, and the company has always supported us wholey. (No Bob, it's not a name drop or a random pic, Chip and Ray are quite good friends, so was/is Armond, unfortunately he isn't there anymore, and he owe's me lunch!)
Interestingly enough, this is practically, probably identically(not sure) the same trigger group that Kimber uses. They sell about 50,000 copies a year, and relatively speaking, have few problems that I am aware of. I've jsut never seen a hammer and sear set break from CMC or Kimber, but I know I only see a relatively small amount of firearms.
Where am I headed with this? For a first time builder like Shorts, who is doing an admirable write-up and super photo's (by the way, what camera are you using? I'm jealous and just gotta know) the CMC parts are quite economical, have a great track record, and if you can resist not fixing what is not broken, will seve you well. All you need to do is cut a relief angle, insure even contact on both hammer hooks, and then try to wear them out. It will take quite some time.