OldMarksman
Staff
There is really not much to add to Glenn's summary.
Open Carry Experience
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Limnophile
New member
No permit is needed to carry openly in WA, but I've never done it. Except in the parking lot of a gun range, I've never seen anyone doing it in the 29 years I've lived here, and I have no desire to draw attention to myself. It's nice to know I don't have to fret about my concealed handgun being inadvertently exposed. This led me to choose OWB as my preferred carry mode.
Lott and others have conclusively demonstrated that concealed carry legislation results in a reduction of violent crime. I suspect that a combination of civilian concealed and open carry would prove to be even more effective in suppressing crime, if a study could be designed and carry out to test this hypothesis.
I recently saw a claim that 11 million people now have concealed carry permits. That's about 5% of the adult population. A knowledgeable criminal has to worry that 1 in 20 adults are now armed and dangerous to his trade, and he can't be sure which ones pose the danger to him. One downside of concealed carry, however, is the lack of advertizing. If a smattering of folks would carry openly, criminals would, upon seeing such a display, be reminded of the fact that his penchant for criminal activity could be very hazardous to his health, providing a beneficial reinforcement of the fact that armed citizens are out and about.
I understand that open carry has the potential to motivate the anti-gun crowd, but giving in to them by refusing to carry openly I think diminishes our rights. Every time a citizen or cop wigs out over the sight of an openly carried firearm only to learn that it is not a crime is a victory for the natural right to carry a weapon. That being said, I'm comfortable having others assume this burden, and I hope those that do have the sense not to take it too far.
Lott and others have conclusively demonstrated that concealed carry legislation results in a reduction of violent crime. I suspect that a combination of civilian concealed and open carry would prove to be even more effective in suppressing crime, if a study could be designed and carry out to test this hypothesis.
I recently saw a claim that 11 million people now have concealed carry permits. That's about 5% of the adult population. A knowledgeable criminal has to worry that 1 in 20 adults are now armed and dangerous to his trade, and he can't be sure which ones pose the danger to him. One downside of concealed carry, however, is the lack of advertizing. If a smattering of folks would carry openly, criminals would, upon seeing such a display, be reminded of the fact that his penchant for criminal activity could be very hazardous to his health, providing a beneficial reinforcement of the fact that armed citizens are out and about.
I understand that open carry has the potential to motivate the anti-gun crowd, but giving in to them by refusing to carry openly I think diminishes our rights. Every time a citizen or cop wigs out over the sight of an openly carried firearm only to learn that it is not a crime is a victory for the natural right to carry a weapon. That being said, I'm comfortable having others assume this burden, and I hope those that do have the sense not to take it too far.
Dusty Rivers
New member
Responsibility
When I see a person with an open carry my first thought is "probably law enforcement". Next thing is to evaluate to the best of my ability whether I think that person looks and acts responsible.
When I open carry I intend to look, dress, act & be responsible (as I see it in my mind's eye). It is not the open carry that creates the picture, it is the entire presences that the individual creates.
Discrete open carry should be no different than discrete concealed carry.
Comments about open carry people being targets of crime fall into the same category of people with expensive jewelry, flashy cars, trucks, shoes, jackets,
sun glasses. There is a time and a place to wear/use them. and there is a time and a place to leave them at home.
If you don't make a big deal out of carrying openly, then most people probably wouldn't either. Look and act responsibly. when open carry starts in Texas wear a short loose shirt that flaps in the wind for a couple of month. Gradually get people used to it. Don't flaunt it. Ease people into seeing it.
Remember the first time you concealed carry and you just knew that everyone was sure you had a gun and were looking at just you. Open carry will probably feel the same the first couple of times. Be cool, be and act responsible. Get people used to it, and only do it where appropriate, and good taste dictates.
I look forward to having the choice to open carry in Texas
When I see a person with an open carry my first thought is "probably law enforcement". Next thing is to evaluate to the best of my ability whether I think that person looks and acts responsible.
When I open carry I intend to look, dress, act & be responsible (as I see it in my mind's eye). It is not the open carry that creates the picture, it is the entire presences that the individual creates.
Discrete open carry should be no different than discrete concealed carry.
Comments about open carry people being targets of crime fall into the same category of people with expensive jewelry, flashy cars, trucks, shoes, jackets,
sun glasses. There is a time and a place to wear/use them. and there is a time and a place to leave them at home.
If you don't make a big deal out of carrying openly, then most people probably wouldn't either. Look and act responsibly. when open carry starts in Texas wear a short loose shirt that flaps in the wind for a couple of month. Gradually get people used to it. Don't flaunt it. Ease people into seeing it.
Remember the first time you concealed carry and you just knew that everyone was sure you had a gun and were looking at just you. Open carry will probably feel the same the first couple of times. Be cool, be and act responsible. Get people used to it, and only do it where appropriate, and good taste dictates.
I look forward to having the choice to open carry in Texas
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OldMarksman
Staff
Posted by Limnophile:
However I do think it quite reasonable to postulate that, in one of the few locations in which numerous persons carry openly, the equations would probably change. One would expect potential criminals to be much less inclined to risk trying to surprise and attack one open carrier in the presence of others. I remember reading Elmer Keith's mention of that in Sixguns long ago when he discussed the common carrying of guns by citizens when he was younger. Casual observations in Israel would also tend to support that hypothesis rather strongly.
That's one possibility, but there are others. A single open carrier can be surprised and attacked--it is simply not realistically possible for anyone to maintain constant, 360 degree "situational awareness" and guard against ambush by more that one attacker.
However I do think it quite reasonable to postulate that, in one of the few locations in which numerous persons carry openly, the equations would probably change. One would expect potential criminals to be much less inclined to risk trying to surprise and attack one open carrier in the presence of others. I remember reading Elmer Keith's mention of that in Sixguns long ago when he discussed the common carrying of guns by citizens when he was younger. Casual observations in Israel would also tend to support that hypothesis rather strongly.
Limnophile
New member
A single concealed carrier is just as vulnerable to surprise attack.
In a jurisdiction with concealed carry, the likelihood of anyone in public view being attacked is reduced. If a few open carriers are added to the mix the sight of a handgun could occasionally spur a criminal to act to obtain the gun, but my guess is most, in addition to being reminded of the presence of armed citizens, will be convinced otherwise, that a person carrying openly is a good one to avoid.
OldMarksman
Staff
Posted by Limnophile:
But he may not be as likely to be attacked. The person with a visible firearm is seen to have something valuable to be taken, as would someone wearing a Rolex or jewelry, carrying a laptop, wearing the latest in athletic shoes, or carrying a valuable camera. And under rare circumstances, he may need to be neutralized if a crime is already under way.
Today, many major population cities permit concealed carry, and people do defend themselves from time to time, but there is no way to substantiate the theory that the incidence of crime has been reduced by concealed carry.
There are just not enough data--violent crime is really quite infrequent, and there are far too many other variables to permit one to reliably draw any conclusions.
Of course, and probably more so.
But he may not be as likely to be attacked. The person with a visible firearm is seen to have something valuable to be taken, as would someone wearing a Rolex or jewelry, carrying a laptop, wearing the latest in athletic shoes, or carrying a valuable camera. And under rare circumstances, he may need to be neutralized if a crime is already under way.
That sounds reasonable, but the hypothesis has not been tested.
Today, many major population cities permit concealed carry, and people do defend themselves from time to time, but there is no way to substantiate the theory that the incidence of crime has been reduced by concealed carry.
There are just not enough data--violent crime is really quite infrequent, and there are far too many other variables to permit one to reliably draw any conclusions.
buck460XVR
New member
There are so many variables within so many scenarios, saying anything one way or the other is a moot point depending on the outcome you want.
While a OCer may be a primary target for a loonie going on a killing spree looking to take out as many folks as he can before he himself gets killed, that same OCer, seen walking into a liquor store will probably be a major deterrent to the Meth addict with a box-cutter looking to steal cigarettes. Which scenario is more likely for the average citizen? While a open firearm may be attractive to someone looking to steal something easy to fence, is it safer and easier to steal than the I-Phone from next guy on the street? Which scenario are most small time criminals looking for?
The Title of this thread is "Open Carry Experience", but it seems the majority of folks are making statements with no personal OC experience at all, other than seeing some dufus in a picture on Facebook with an AR slung over his shoulder at Starbucks.
It comes down to responsible gun ownership and making wise choices. It comes down to being a legal law abiding citizen that carries a firearm, legally and with a positive image. That is true whether the gun is carried concealed or open.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
As I said, hypothetical scenarios and speculation passed on as truth, don't really serve us.
It is nice to pontificate but I prefer empirical data. We do not know if significant numbers of OC types will be specifically targeted. We know the phone carriers are being targeted.
We can speculate that intelligent criminals seeing a high priced gun taking a walk can figure out a way to take you out. But so what?
Please be the test case and OC in a truly bad neighborhood and stroll through crowds to test the proposition.
Note that the victim selection literature indicates attacks happen based on the criminal's evaluation of the ease of victimizing you. I'm sure a doofus OC type can arouse predatory instincts and doofus-fu isn't intimidating.
It is nice to pontificate but I prefer empirical data. We do not know if significant numbers of OC types will be specifically targeted. We know the phone carriers are being targeted.
We can speculate that intelligent criminals seeing a high priced gun taking a walk can figure out a way to take you out. But so what?
Please be the test case and OC in a truly bad neighborhood and stroll through crowds to test the proposition.
Note that the victim selection literature indicates attacks happen based on the criminal's evaluation of the ease of victimizing you. I'm sure a doofus OC type can arouse predatory instincts and doofus-fu isn't intimidating.
I much prefer to CC. The few times I have open carried in public it was due to wardrobe restrictions- I'd prefer completely open carry to poorly concealed carry, or because for some reason I didn't have my CC permit (I most dumbly let it expire once and in WA you can open carry without a permit, so I did that until I was able to renew).
I feel like if an emergency situation were to come up, having the surprise factor of the gun on my side would probably be more to my benefit than having a visible firearm would be to being a deterrent of any kind.
Open carrying seems to be asking for trouble in my opinion. Private establishments may ask you to leave, people may throw a fit and call the cops on you just because of their own ignorance, and if you find yourself in an escalating situation with a hot-head, it can be be like throwing gas on the flames.
I know this is going to enrage people, but it's kind of like walking around with your weiner hanging out. You know it is going to make people made and/or uncomfortable and even if their reasoning isn't sound, and it is (generally) unnecessary. It is just asking for confrontation. Based solely on what I've seen, a lot of people who could CC choose to open carry instead just because they enjoy the arguments they can get into over second amendment rights the moment someone gives them a dirty look, or because they have some version of small man syndrome and it gives them a false sense of manliness.
I'm not trying to be antagonistic so I'm sorry if anyone is insulted by my perspective- obviously there are situations that will be better for one or the other but generally, I think CC is the more practical way to go.
I feel like if an emergency situation were to come up, having the surprise factor of the gun on my side would probably be more to my benefit than having a visible firearm would be to being a deterrent of any kind.
Open carrying seems to be asking for trouble in my opinion. Private establishments may ask you to leave, people may throw a fit and call the cops on you just because of their own ignorance, and if you find yourself in an escalating situation with a hot-head, it can be be like throwing gas on the flames.
I know this is going to enrage people, but it's kind of like walking around with your weiner hanging out. You know it is going to make people made and/or uncomfortable and even if their reasoning isn't sound, and it is (generally) unnecessary. It is just asking for confrontation. Based solely on what I've seen, a lot of people who could CC choose to open carry instead just because they enjoy the arguments they can get into over second amendment rights the moment someone gives them a dirty look, or because they have some version of small man syndrome and it gives them a false sense of manliness.
I'm not trying to be antagonistic so I'm sorry if anyone is insulted by my perspective- obviously there are situations that will be better for one or the other but generally, I think CC is the more practical way to go.
OldMarksman
Staff
If I had rural property and drove a tractor or rode an ATV for farm work and maintenance, I am pretty sure that I would strap on a revolver. I think it would be more comfortable and convenient than concealed carry, and I can see little or no reason not to.
As an aside, that brings back a very old memory: when I was just under 13, the groundskeeper at the military summer camp I was attending rode up on a Ford tractor, with a S&W .22/32 Kit Gun on his belt. That was out in the country.
However, in the suburban environment in which I live and shop, I choose to carry concealed. I have several reasons.
I am glad that I do not have to worry much about incidental exposure now.
As Glenn said, we have very little in the way of empirical data. One can only speculate....with one possible exception.
Some of the stores in our area now have laser simulation facilities with large screens and interactive systems and sensors. Some local police departments are using them.
These are used to train "good guys." I don't know, and Glenn is the most qualified to opine, but maybe it would be possible to design an experiment in which the trainee is a "robber" and see what he does most often if , for example, the store clerk makes a furtive movement, or , more to the point here, an armed citizen carrying openly comes in during a robbery in progress.
At least one issue I can see is that the trainee would not really have a criminal mindset.
I'm pretty sure that FoF exercises would demonstrate how a couple of people could violently relieve an open carrier of his firearm, but that does not tell us anything about mindset or likelihood.
I am not interested in being the test case.
As an aside, that brings back a very old memory: when I was just under 13, the groundskeeper at the military summer camp I was attending rode up on a Ford tractor, with a S&W .22/32 Kit Gun on his belt. That was out in the country.
However, in the suburban environment in which I live and shop, I choose to carry concealed. I have several reasons.
I am glad that I do not have to worry much about incidental exposure now.
As Glenn said, we have very little in the way of empirical data. One can only speculate....with one possible exception.
Some of the stores in our area now have laser simulation facilities with large screens and interactive systems and sensors. Some local police departments are using them.
These are used to train "good guys." I don't know, and Glenn is the most qualified to opine, but maybe it would be possible to design an experiment in which the trainee is a "robber" and see what he does most often if , for example, the store clerk makes a furtive movement, or , more to the point here, an armed citizen carrying openly comes in during a robbery in progress.
At least one issue I can see is that the trainee would not really have a criminal mindset.
I'm pretty sure that FoF exercises would demonstrate how a couple of people could violently relieve an open carrier of his firearm, but that does not tell us anything about mindset or likelihood.
I am not interested in being the test case.
Dusty Rivers
New member
When the law passes - Do what you want
How about when the law passes If you want to CC, then CC and if you want to Open Carry, then open carry, and a year from now we will see and hear what went on.
Texas will not be the first state with open carry ( if it passes!). As far as I know no open carry state has felt the need to repeal their open carry laws.
So one would think hell hasn't frozen over yet.
Law Enforcement types are not routinely wrestled to the ground for their guns. Sometimes it occurs in the course of law enforcement, but we are talking about the exceptions, not the norm. We can all make up wild visions in our head. Most have already predetermined if they are in favor or not.
In either case I hope you still support my and your right to carry Open or CC. then we can all make our own personal choices, and don't freak out, and help educate everyone that it is ( hopefully) legal in all 50 states someday.
How about when the law passes If you want to CC, then CC and if you want to Open Carry, then open carry, and a year from now we will see and hear what went on.
Texas will not be the first state with open carry ( if it passes!). As far as I know no open carry state has felt the need to repeal their open carry laws.
So one would think hell hasn't frozen over yet.
Law Enforcement types are not routinely wrestled to the ground for their guns. Sometimes it occurs in the course of law enforcement, but we are talking about the exceptions, not the norm. We can all make up wild visions in our head. Most have already predetermined if they are in favor or not.
In either case I hope you still support my and your right to carry Open or CC. then we can all make our own personal choices, and don't freak out, and help educate everyone that it is ( hopefully) legal in all 50 states someday.
Open Carry
Banger, I, too, like the idea of the element of surprise. Do not misunderstand, I am totally in favor of everyone's right to Open Carry, but as with many behaviors that are legal, discretion should be used. Unless one is involved in a potentially disruptive political statement or in an area that will not make the sheep stampede I think that Open Carry should be carefully evaluated.
On another side of this, I read the other day some advice that perhaps we should use the term "permit-less carry" rather than "constitutional carry" in a legal setting since the latter opens up a federal aspect for what so far is clearly a state issue. Constitutional Carry would bring up a different issue that may not apply in a State setting. I sort of liked that and think it is worth discussing.
I am not a lawyer, and I did not Stay in a Holiday Motel.
Banger, I, too, like the idea of the element of surprise. Do not misunderstand, I am totally in favor of everyone's right to Open Carry, but as with many behaviors that are legal, discretion should be used. Unless one is involved in a potentially disruptive political statement or in an area that will not make the sheep stampede I think that Open Carry should be carefully evaluated.
On another side of this, I read the other day some advice that perhaps we should use the term "permit-less carry" rather than "constitutional carry" in a legal setting since the latter opens up a federal aspect for what so far is clearly a state issue. Constitutional Carry would bring up a different issue that may not apply in a State setting. I sort of liked that and think it is worth discussing.
I am not a lawyer, and I did not Stay in a Holiday Motel.
Andy Blozinski
New member
I'm in Texas and I've never been a fan of open carry as I think in most social settings it's just bad manners. But...I think it can serve a very useful function for concealed carry. Some people have been busted for their concealed weapon only because they printed. Cop having a bad day makes your day bad. I also don't have to worry about accidentally showing to the public.
I ran into a situation where I was unfortunately for annoying reasons NOT carrying when it would have been slightly handy. I had a a person yelling and aggressively approaching me for money. I had to walk very quickly (almost run) away as I was without my weapon. He didn't pursue as the hotel entrance wasn't far away. If I'd had my concealed carry and open carry was legal, I could have just popped my shirt up for a moment without drawing my weapon to drop the hint to back off.
Basically legal open carry makes you less likely to get busted for brandishing your concealed weapon when you haven't actually drawn it.
I ran into a situation where I was unfortunately for annoying reasons NOT carrying when it would have been slightly handy. I had a a person yelling and aggressively approaching me for money. I had to walk very quickly (almost run) away as I was without my weapon. He didn't pursue as the hotel entrance wasn't far away. If I'd had my concealed carry and open carry was legal, I could have just popped my shirt up for a moment without drawing my weapon to drop the hint to back off.
Basically legal open carry makes you less likely to get busted for brandishing your concealed weapon when you haven't actually drawn it.
Limnophile
New member
kinggabby,
Your story is something of a controlled, albeit unreplicated, experiment with three carry modes in a rough neighborhood -- none (2 yr), concealed (1 yr), and open (2 yr). Can you be specific as to the period or periods your absence of problems applies. Better yet, can you describe the differences in how you were treated in each of the three periods?
Thanks.
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Not much difference from the no carry ( did not own a firearm ) to conceal carry. I was a bigger man in size and walked sure footed. So people did not bother me. The last two years I have walked with a limp and not so sure footed in essence I look like an easy target. ( work related injury ) . Since my injury I have have several shady people try to get close to me. But once they caught a sight of my strong side ( 3:00 position ) I have noticed that they leave very quickly. I don't rest my hand upon it or stand like I am some kind of King. On the contrary I feel comfortable. But to add I am not afraid to tell someone to back off. Anything else feel free to ask.
Limnophile
New member
I'll take that as one experiment (a weak one) pointing toward open carry being an effective deterrant.
What piece are you carrying openly?
In two years of open carry what have been your negative experiences?
I would not call it an experiment . I carry a G30 SF . I had one negative with one Oklahoma County Sheriff's Deputy ( FTO ). That happened shortly after open carry took affect in Oklahoma. An off duty deputy told me I should report it. I did not have his name just that he was an FTO ( Field training officer ) He told me I needed to cover it up. I called the Oklahoma Open Carry Association. The person I spoke to told me he had a contact on the Sheriff's Department. Within 10 minutes the Under sheriff called me directly and asked what happened. I told him every detail. The deputy who told me to report it said to me a week later " I saw you made your complaint". I asked how did you know. He told me that the Sheriff's Department called him. Since then no problems .
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