ONE SHOT STOP (just the facts, NOT a can of worms)

Not being tremendously mathmatically inclined, Newton, joules, and other measures (particularly metric ones) just confuse the heck out of me.

I found the links interesting, but not using familiar units meant I didn't really get any meaningful info.

What I do know is that the common defense rounds of 9mm and .45ACP develope virtually identical energy (in FMJ loadings) of approx 368 ft/lbs. The .357 Mag is over 500 with the right loads.

This is an interesting number for comparision, but other than that is relatively meaningless, at least as far as the "stopping power" discussion is concerned.

It might be fair to compare a baseball bat and a punch, as both are non penetrating blunt force impacts. Comparing the energy of a punch to that of a bullet is apples and oranges. Both are fruit, but beyond that, completely different.
 
Sort of surprised this isn't locked.

Just in case you need it repeated one more time, there is no such thing as a one-shot stop, at least not in a handgun. A 50BMG might qualify. :-)

If you want to know what caliber to buy, get a normal service caliber, go buy some good HP ammo, and forget about it. They all work, and they all fail occasionally. If you do your job, chances are the bullets will do theirs.
 
Why lock it? It is (so far) a reasonable discussion of differing viewpoints on a shooting-related topic.

I got to thinking about the whole punch/bullet comparison because I worked with professional boxers for several years. One of the things I did was to get punched (in the hand) by some top of the line world championship boxers. This was a rigidly controlled test because of liability & boxing licensing considerations where I volunteered to be a strain gauge holder in a punch target pad. None of them punched harder than a decently powerful revolver recoils.:eek::D
 
The problem with getting statistics is that people involved in shootings are not inclined to state the bullet weights,loads and the gun types they just shot someone with.

There are potential legal issues involved and the less information the people who defending themselves surrender,the easier it is for them to not find themselves incorrectly charged for something.

Law officers unfortunately then become the only real measure for a steady database on which to find tracable statitistics.

And again,because of legal issues,we only get those statistics usually years after the shootings have happened.

I think we will see that the 40 Smith round has acquitted itself very well ( better then the 38 or the 9mm) in helping law officers ( and the general public too) get a handle on not dieing in the field as long as they actually hit the bad guys trying to kill them.

The only round I ever read of being close to a one shot stopper was a 357 magnum 125 grn jhp ( properly aimed of course) but the only real one shot stopper ,I would think,is a shotgun loaded with proper shells fired from close range.
 
If he ain't bleeding he ain't dying unless you hit the CNS, period.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

That link will explain away a lot of misconceptions like wound cavities and fragmenting bullets hype.

They thought they had something when they came up with the RII or relative incapacitation index but it is flawed too, some very big flaws. No two bullets will act the same in a human body because all bodies are different and it is unlikely that any two bullets will enter our bag of soft tissue, water, bones, fat and organs the same way twice or encounter the same obstacles on the way to the flesh part.

Hits count more than misses and bigger holes bleed more than little holes, beyond that everything is a crapshoot.
 
Old Grump -

That link is one everybody thinking about stopping power should take the time to read. It leaves nothing out and pulls no punches.
 
I was just reiterating how energy transfer is BS. Small arms fire does not transfer enough force to knock down a person. Anyone who has been deer or hog hunting can tell ya even a 30cal rifle will not knock over a medium sized animal.

CNS hit or Blood pressure loss are the only things that is going to "stop" a determined attacker. So again penetration and the size of hole to allow for blood loss is what really matters.

Unfortunately no I did not get to learn it from a book or online I got to learn it on the battlefield. Bullet placement on a moving target is more a matter of luck then skill so the round and bullet do make a big difference. People that tout bullet placement as being the end all be all have only ever shot at paper
 
Most small arms fire is less than 5,000 Newtons of force?

Lets convert Newton/Metres to Ft/Lbs & see what happens.

http://www.unitconversion.org/energy...onversion.html

3687 Ft/Lbs of non-penetrating force. Surprising isn't it.
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how do you get from 5,000 newtons of force to 5,000 newton meters of energy before converting to 3687 ft lbs of energy ?

5,000 newtons is about 1100 lbs.

Most small arms fire is less than 5,000 Newtons of force?
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where did this come from ?
 
The 357mag, 125gr SJHP is the undisputed king of handgun stopping power. There's a large database of shootings with this load and it proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, that velocity matters even with handguns. Beyond that, the survival rate tends to be pretty low with this load.
 
Most places that keep track of such statistics don't make them available to most folks. When you speak with folks such as doctors or medics that actually treat gunshot wounds. Or Military or LEO's that have been involved in gunfights or do after action reports this is what you find out. No two hits by a handgun even of the same caliber, same gun, same bullet are ever alike.
Human beings are mad up of several different types of materials such as bone, fat, muscle and so on. Have different psychological makeups at different times. Which can be due to attitudes, drugs, adrenal output, mental instability and so on.
So again their is no way to predict what a bullet of the same caliber, firing the same bullet will do when it strikes different individuals. The only thing's we know to be effective are to hit the individual in vital area's, with bullets that penetrate deep enough to reach vital organs, and that expand as much as possible, and repeat until violent intent is ceased. It appears that the bullets that meet the strict F.B.I. criteria are the best choices for this. Winchester firearms that has access to this type of data states that rounds that meet the F.B.I. criteria of penetration and expansion through the diffrent media into 10% ballistic gelatin tend to do well on the streets.
Sorry it's not what you want to hear about statistics. But the fact remans again selecting one of the service calibers of 9mm or above. Then select a good bullet that meets the above mentioned criteria. Plus learning to handle your chosen weapon well through good training and practice will go the farthest to assure your survival of a gun fight. The only bad part is you can do everything right and still get killed. Luck may work for you or against you. If you don't believe in luck how about statictical variance????
 
there is such a thing as a instant kill, and this is what the Army teaches about that (from FM 3-22.9):


2) Incapacitating Shot Placement (Figure 7-37). The only shot placement that guarantees immediate and total incapacitation is one roughly centered in the face, below the middle of the forehead and the upper lip, and from the eyes in. Shots to the side of the head should be centered between the crown of the skull and the middle of the ear opening, from the center of the cheekbones to the middle of the back of the head.
image1695.jpg

Figure 7-37. Incapacitation zone aim points.
 
The report "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" covers the subject really well.

It is based heavily on the work of Dr Martin Fackler, but many of the ideas are corroborated by people such as Dr Douglas, Dr. Josselson from Walter Reed - Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, Dr Gary Roberts and others.


Here are a number of critiques

http://www.firearmstactical.com/sanow-strikes-out.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/afte.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/streetstoppers.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm

The subject "One Shot Stop" because it was put forth by Marshall and Sanow with dubious scientifc research methodology has very few facts behind it.

I don't even think it's a can of worms anymore, the concept and the recomendations that stem from it have just been debunked, that's all.
 
Marshall and Sanow's data is not an "end all" study but was a noble effort and did provide data to fuel further research and analysis. STATISTICS????
I learned early on there are three types of lies: Lies, D*** Lies, and Statistics. Take 100 shooting with a particular cartridge. On the Bell Curve you will get a general idea of the most frequent outcome in the middle with the outliers indicating a few poor performances and a few great performances. So what did I learn from all this? Double Tap in defensive situation regardless of what you are carrying. If carrying a single shot, get another one and carry a pair.
 
Posted by C0untZer0:
The subject "One Shot Stop" because it was put forth by Marshall and Sanow with dubious scientific (sp) research methodology has very few facts behind it.

I don't even think it's a can of worms anymore, the concept and the recomendations (sp) that stem from it have just been debunked, that's all.
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If you buy into Fackler’s point of view, sure. From what I can tell, Fackler hates M&S. He slams them every time he gets the chance. On the other hand, M&S have never slammed Fackler and, in fact, gave him credit for his work in their books and articles.

M&S were long-time street cops who’ve attended many autopsies and interviewed hundreds of cops and civilians who survived gunfights. They never claimed their work was scientific and anyone who says their work is in any way statistical never took a course in statistics. Their conclusions were supported by guys like Mas Ayoob and Jim Cirillo.

Don’t get me wrong, Fackler’s work has value, but it’s lab work.
 
Fackler isn't alone in his assesment of M&S publications.

The FBI didn't buy into M&S and perhaps only by virtue of following the FBI, most major LEAs didn't buy into M&S conclusions or theories.

But in the past when large LEAs have studied ammo choices they've taken Fackler's studies, theories and finding into account. I don't know of any major metro LEA that made their duty ammo selection based on M&S. Of course some LEAs make ridiculous choices anyway, based on politics, cost savings or the chief's personal preferences or whatever.

If M&S couln't have been discredited they wouldn't have been discredited. Fackler doesn't have a mind-control device, and he didn't discredit M&S by himself.

It's dishonest to assign a percentage to a round and say "that's how effective this round is" or "that's the predicted one-shot-stop for this round", and then when people versed in scientific methodology and statistics point out numerous errors in that end product, M&S turn around and say "We're not scientists, we never said we were statisticians."

They put out a psudo-scientific study which by virtue of the end results - the assignment of numbers to rounds, is being passed off as a scientifc study of bullet effectiveness. Then when it was debunked, they fall back on their careers as police officers for validity?

It's called back pedaling

If no one had ever found fault with their results I doubt they'd be saying "We're not scientists" "We're not statisticians." "There's nothing scientific about our books."
 
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I also think that the pursuit of the "One-Shot-Stop" is in a way a version of looking for the magic bullet.

IMO there is an underlying attitude that no one really knows what goes on with a bullet and that somehow there is some special combination of bullet weight, velocity, caliber and bullet material, that just has a devastating and instantaneous effect on anyone when they get hit by it.

And the M&S studies are like winnowing for gold... somehow that bullet is out there and the street studies are going to uncover that an ammo manufacturer really did cross a diamond with a pearl and come up with the perfect bullet.

At least 4 major ammo makers understand exactly what goes on with different combinations of weight, velocity, bullet material and design by caliber. It's not a mystery to their engineers.
 
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