ONE SHOT STOP (just the facts, NOT a can of worms)

Revolver cartridges were in use for much longer than autos so of course .357 has more "one shot stops". The data needs to be normalized.
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Normalized how?
You say revolvers have been in use longer than semi-autos, that's true. But then you compare the .357 as a round with a longer history, which is not true.
9mm Luger, aka 9x19 was in an issue pistol in 1908, the Luger P-08. The .357 S&W magnum wasn't invented until 1934, so you are right the facts are embarrassing, particularly when you don't know them aren't they?:eek:

I actually agree with your thinking on hoping to never need to find out what works, but please when making up "facts 95% of the time" do check the history.:D
 
Normalized how?
You say revolvers have been in use longer than semi-autos, that's true. But then you compare the .357 as a round with a longer history, which is not true.
9mm Luger, aka 9x19 was in an issue pistol in 1908, the Luger P-08. The .357 S&W magnum wasn't invented until 1934, so you are right the facts are embarrassing, particularly when you don't know them aren't they?

I actually agree with your thinking on hoping to never need to find out what works, but please when making up "facts 95% of the time" do check the history.
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Normalized as in an average of one shot stops per year, or something else that would put cartridges with different lengths of service history on the same ground. Instead of saying "this cartridge has 4,000 one shot stops and this one has 1,000 so the first one is better."

Was the 9mm being issued to most police departments in the United States in 1908? I never said one was created before the other, I said it was in use longer.

I think in the US .357 has been used more than 9mm in shootings, but you're right I am making that up, even though I still believe it. I also said most statistics are made up. So I was right :P

Largely the spirit of my post was that it's all a crapshoot, not that I'm taking a side in the debate.

And I never said any facts were embarrassing.
 
"One shot stop", with a handgun?

I'd think you're going to end up chasing your tail to some extent. Handguns are still handguns, after all. Even rifles and shotguns don't "guarantee" such things.

You can review this older linked article for some interesting info related to this subject:
One-shot drops: surviving the myth http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2194/is_10_73/ai_n7577583/

Time spent trying to find the definitive answer to this might be better invested in developing and maintaining your skillset on a training/practice range, and better understanding how mindset can be best developed and utilized in such situations.

I've spent over 20 years as a LE firearms instructor, and I don't pretend to have found the "definitive answer" to the 1-shot stop/stopping power discussions. "Stopping Power" is probably best left to those discussions which involve the use of disc brakes in motor vehicles.
 
Again, respectfully, the qualifier as to what I am looking to study: Statistics.
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As far as I know, there aren't and statistics available. M&S used raw data from information on gunfights and interviews with witnesses. Their criteria were arbitrary, as they had to be, considering the subject. They never claimed their work was scientific or statistical.

Mas Ayoob did similar studies and came to the same conclusions as M&S.

Jim Cirillo, who was involved in 17 gunfights and attended a lot of post-shooting autopsies, was on record as agreeing with the above studies.

There are too many variables in gunfights to allow anyone to come up with useful statistics. It can be done in the lab, but people often won't participate in studies that require them to be shot.

Bummer!
 
I've seen a guy get shot in the forehead 1" above the brow line with a .338 Lapua Mag fight for another minute and a half. It all depends on everything in the world it could depend on.


So far these are the caliber of posts entered, ya'll are not helping. Did you even read his initial post? This guy wants reference to statistics, that's it. Not first person accounts of what you have seen in the woods or campfire stories.

I don't have anything constructive to add but neither has anyone else so far. I just wanted to point that out. If you have no clue where to find the info requested, avoid the temptation to increase your post count and move along.

I don't frequent this forum as much as I used to and this thread is a prime example of why. 2 pages in and not a single post which even come close to helping the OP.
 
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Was the 9mm being issued to most police departments in the United States in 1908? I never said one was created before the other, I said it was in use longer.
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Yes, but you never specified by whom. The U.S. Police is a new attempt to hide garbage data.
The German army (among others) were using them so they were in use.
Assuming you don't want to claim the .357 was in use before it's invention you're still batting 100.:D

As for the statistics I was quoting from a study done I believe for the FBI. It was the one where they took data from a bunch of actual armed encounters & came up with the 3 rounds, 7 yards standard. Like I said, it's probably pout of date now, but it was the defacto standard for many years & I haven't found a replacement.
It didn't claim 100% one shot stops it simply reported a % of one stop shots.
 
ripnbst said:
This guy wants reference to statistics, that's it
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Several people have all ready noted that THERE ARE NOT any valid statistics on one shot stops.

Its a myth, a sham, a misnomer, etc
 
The Marshall/Sanow study is probably about the best you'll find. Be careful though. Word of mouth has the 45 acp 230 jhp at about 96% but when you examine the actual figures you'll see that it was one manufacturer and there were a couple of other 230 grain jhp rounds there were well below that. Anything in that study that is 90% or above is ok with me. Also there are different stats for different barrel lengths and so on... Judging by the current standards you'll want maximum expansion with at least 12 inches of penetration in 10% gel. Different circumstances have different interest for self defense handguns, ie; getting mugged at an ATM on a City street you'll be well off with a 45acp or 357 Mag/Sig. But being up at your summer cottage or condo on the mountain when help is far far away and you may face a three person or more armed home invasion you very well may want a high cap 9mm with something like 124 grain +P. Very interesting topic and allot to think about. Could luck with your research.
 
IIRC Jeff Cooper's criterion was at least over 50%, preferably at least 75%, hence his advocacy of the 45 ACP.
 
White Mamba there is a dash cam video of a Southern Trooper shooting a heavy suspect five times in the chest at point blank with a 357 mag revolver. The poor Trooper gets up and calls for assistance when the suspect fires one round from a .22 lr derringer which goes into the side of the trooper's chest (between the vest panels) and kills him. The suspect lived and went to jail.
 
Satistics wanted, however biased...

ripnbst said:
...ya'll are not helping. Did you even read his initial post? This guy wants reference to statistics, that's it.
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Thanks for that, ripnbst... As I stated, I didn't want to open a can of worms, just seeking statistics...

I have no problem with the marshall and sanow stats. As far as I can tell, they were the first to try to ascertain the "one shot stop" ballistics.

Yes, the data is far from ideal scientific data, however, the study does shed light on the subject and does present much of the data which forms the conclusions.

Yes, their stats are not perfect, as it is impossible to quantify and qualify such a phenomenon as the the "one shot stop"...

However, the marshall and sanow study does shed some light on the subject.

Can anyone else weigh in with stats and studies which might shed more wisdom on the subject of the "one shot stop"?

Thanks much for all your time and opinions.
 
I am interested in recomendations of data on the "one stop shot" for handguns in a self defense situation from humans (bad guys).
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Biff,
You might draw a more meaningful conclusion if you include data from all handgun usage and not limit it to self defense.

I've pointed out before, that, based just on the number of shots fired, the targets involved and where the bullets hit - the .44spl David Berkowitz used was only marginal @ best.
IIRC, only one of his victims could have been labled a ""one shot stop".

I'm not sure of the exact details & to be honest, I don't really care to waste my time anymore looking them up and defending the vailidty of the data. Too many people just poo poo it as "the guy was crazy and that proves nothing".

Which is fine. I'm not tryig to "prove" anything - just point out that even with a well placed shot into a vital, using a serious defensive round - "stuff happens".
You can't igonore that "stuff" - it has to be included in the input.
 
Nobody (except the authors) agrees with the M&S 'one-shot-stop' data. 'cause it's only data, not statistics.

However, their third book..."A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition" 2001, makes interesting reading with lots of actual street shootings listed for various calibers.

While you may never get a final answer on what's a one-shot-stop, it's fun to read about it and speculate.

That's why I like my S&W .357mag revolver loaded with Rem GS 125gr .357mag JHP.

BTW, I think you can get the book at Amazon.com.

og
 
There are no guarantees, as much as we want to believe there is, as much as we try to fool ourselves, there is no guarantees.

I recommend looking at "Shooting to Live" by Captains William E Fairbarin and Eric A Sykes of the Shanghai Police. This was at a time when gangs ruled the city.

Between the two they were involved in over 600 shootings. Light fast bullets, slow heavy bullets, expanding bullets, fmj bullets, etc etc. In the book they relate many stories of bandits taking several hits with a 45 and then were subdued after being pistol whipped.

What I did find interesting in this book, was where people were shot. According to their findings, "gut shots" were the most effective, not that they dropped the bandit, but when shot in the gut, the person shot (bandit or cop) tend to drop what ever they are holding to grab their stomach.

All or most of us have been hit hard in the stomach at one time or other, and if you've been hit such, you can understand how this could be true.

There are lots of studies out there, and taking them all into account, we can see that Fairbairn and Sykes are correct. There is no guarantee.
 
They also wrote that the more they learned, the less sure they were about anything. But they still ended up using the .45 automatic (and .380s, too, for that matter). They also mentioned that when they heard that when they were going up against someone who might be armed with a Mauser pistol, that was when everyone started looking around for bullet proof vests.
 
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