ONE SHOT STOP (just the facts, NOT a can of worms)

People can live for long enough to kill you with a knife or pistol even with a completely destoyed heart.

The only true one stop shot is a hole through the thinktank, and even that has proven not to be enough on occasion.
 
In my opinion there is not a one stop magical round. The only way a one round stop is possible is a shot in the head or spinal cord. This will stop a attacker. Center mass shots that penetrate vital organs may or may not stop a attacker. They may slow a attacker down longer for enough blood loss or lack of oxygen to eventually cause death but it may take several shots to finish the job. Perfect example of this was the famous Miami shoot out with FBI and two felons. Even after several shots Michael Platt keep on fighting and killed two FBI agents. Again there is not a magic one stop round unless the head or central nervous system is hit.
Howard
 
If you really look closely at the non-brand name ammo comparisons, there is not a whole lot of difference from the 9mm to .40S&W and 45ACP rounds for effectiveness. This surprised me a lot! After reading (here) about all the caliber wars, etc, it boils down to not a whole lot of difference in caliber size.
Regular 9mm ball ammo is right there with the .40S&W ball ammo and .45ACP ball ammo. Just minor differences.

AmmoComparison.jpg
 
I've seen a guy get shot in the forehead 1" above the brow line with a .338 Lapua Mag fight for another minute and a half. It all depends on everything in the world it could depend on.
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This is why the question posed by this topic has no answer. There are some facts, in various "studies" or compilations of evidence from real world events. But these facts aren't of the "water boils when it reaches 212 degrees Farenheit at a pressure of 1 atmosphere" variety. They are of the "you can boil water by applying heat" variety.

All rounds are one shot stoppers, except when they're not. By the same token, no round is a one shot stopper, except when it is.

A thread about "stopping power" that isn't a can of worms? Sorry. Not possible.
 
I dont buy all the shot in the chest 8 times and he kept coming and the shot in the head with a .338 mag and fought on. A .338 would have blown the back of his skull and half his brain out the exit wound. Most likely it was a glancing shot. Not a front to back shot. 6 shots in the chest with a .357mag? Not sure i put stock in all of those stories
 
Since we live in an imperfect world the question is what has the best track record-and how do we define that?
 
normalization of data

I remember M&S published one shot stop figures in Combat Handguns magazine.

In a table they listed what they categorized as "one-shot-stops" (what constitutes a stop is a whole other debate).

In the same table they assigned One Shot Stop percentages to a 9mm supposedly used in 12 shootings. In the same table, they compared One Shot Stop percentages to a .357 round that had supposedly been used in 42 shootings.

Now, they're not doing linear regression or ANOVA or anything like that. They just taking the number of "stops", (as they define it) and they divide by the total number of shootings they decided to include in their "study" (what shotings they decided to include or exclude is a whole other debate), their definition of stops divided by total number of shootings equals their one shot stop percentage.

But anyway, the flaw that I'm focusing on is comparing a 12 point data set to a 42 point data set and then putting out conclusions about that data.

Just one of the many flaws in their whole "One-Shot-Stop" debacle.
 
ONE SHOT STOP (just the facts, NOT a can of worms)
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Well I can give you a bunch of facts and they're useless.

A known case where a police officer took a .45 to the chin, he went down, but returned fire, eventually killed his assailant, and recovered enough to return to regular duty.

Another known case where a police officer was shot with a .22 LR and died.

What do facts mean? In and of themselves - nothing.

When you ask for "Just the facts" about ONE SHOT STOP, you're asking for nothing because almost nothing about it is factual, and the "facts" that are thrown around have no meaning in and of themselves.

You claim that you didn't want to open a can of worms, but you've already formed your own opinion of M&W one shot stop conclusions.

What you did was bait people into bringing up M&S so you could defend their work.
 
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As I stated, I didn't want to open a can of worms, just seeking statistics...
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I call Bull**** on this


I have no problem with the marshall and sanow stats.
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OK, well there is a whole cult following of M&Sers - they'll welcome you with open arms

As far as I can tell, they were the first to try to ascertain the "one shot stop" ballistics. Yes, the data is far from ideal scientific data, however, the study does shed light on the subject
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Shedding light is a nebulous term, but actually M&S didn't shed light on the subject, they made a lot of money off of disguising their opinions as valid scientific research.

and does present much of the data which forms the conclusions.
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^ I don't even know what that means. But their study is deeply flawed and so are the conclusions. There are times when their conclusions may coincide with the conclusions of others in the field, but it's either a fluke (even a broken clock is right at least twice times a day), or M&S happened to decided that they liked a round that just happened to be effective.

Can anyone else weigh in with stats and studies which might shed more wisdom on the subject of the "one shot stop"?
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It's a mistake to say that just because M&S are the only ones doing this and no one has found a "better" way of measuring "one shot stops" that gives their work value.

There are people who have tried to recreate what M&S did - but they can't make money or get famous off of it, because it's already a dead concept.

There are reasons that institutions like the FBI haven't attempted to recreate what M&S have done - because they know its a flawed concept and a dead end. M&S didn't create anything of value to the law enforcement community or for shooters in general, they made a lot of money for themsleves.

The other thing is, not everyone worships this concept of "The One Shot Stop". Law Enfrorcement agencies put more stock in real measurable performance metrics of bullets - like how deep they penetrate, through different barriers, than someone's obsession with whether a single shot with the round is going to "stop" the attack / aggression - whatever.
 
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6 shots in the chest with a .357mag? Not sure i put stock in all of those stories
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Reference the shooting of Trooper Mark Coates. It happened. As I recall the trooper shot the fat kid 6 times with 145 grain Silver Tips.

The dash camera video was on the web for a while. After watching it I bought a .44 magnum.
 
Hook686 said:
Reference the shooting of Trooper Mark Coates. It happened. As I recall the trooper shot the fat kid 6 times with 145 grain Silver Tips.

The dash camera video was on the web for a while. After watching it I bought a .44 magnum.
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5 shots from the 357. Trooper Coates was shot twice with a 22LR. The first shot was stopped by his vest. The second entered under his left armpit and struck his heart. The murderer recovered from the 5 357mag rounds and was sentenced to life in prison. Trooper Coates was killed by a single 22 bullet.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/420-trooper-mark-hunter-coates

If there ever was an incident that proves shot placement (including penetration) over power, this tragedy was it. The officer would have been better off, in this singular instance, with FMJ ammo. It's the one in a billion incident. Had he survived, JHPs would have likely been a better choice for every other incident of his career.
 
Well I can give you a bunch of facts and they're useless.
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Facts are never useless, interpretation of them can reduce the effectiveness though. I think a lot of the dissent comes from interpretation of what exactly a "One shot stop" actually is.

Back then the definition was pretty close to:

"One shot that makes the assailant stop what he/she is doing immediately, PERIOD"

I also think that the quest for 100% perfection has blurred the issue. I agree no "one shot will cause the assailant to stop immediately by falling down dead & you stop shooting" is likely, or even feasible. What was the thinking back then was more along the lines of how can you increase your chances by getting in that (however temporarily) incapacitating first strike with a single shot fired. Where you went from there, & weather or not the assailant deceased, then,or ever, weren't a part of the equation. Those are modern perceptions that have slurred the information by assigning false precepts to it. Using that as a baseline you are looking at the 70-ish% as a good chance, nothing more because the 30% not covered came into play.
 
There is only one stastic which counts.

Survive the encounter. One shot does not cut it. That is why LEOs are trained to double tap.
 
Stopping power, knock down power, energy transfer are all BS. Go get a 200lb log and shoot it with whatever you want and watch it not fly away like it does in the movies. The average person can punch harder then most small arms fire.

Penetration and the biggest hole you can put in your target is all that matters. Which is why my main carry has been and always will be a 45acp.
 
The average person can punch harder then most small arms fire.
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I got curious & looked the facts up. (yep them pesky facts again):eek:
I was curious about distributed foot Lbs of energy (as in a punch) Vs. penetrating concentrated Ft/ Lbs as in a bullet impact.
Results?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080924230001AANaHCe

http://www.livescience.com/6040-brute-force-humans-punch.html

Most small arms fire is less than 5,000 Newtons of force?

Lets convert Newton/Metres to Ft/Lbs & see what happens.

http://www.unitconversion.org/energy/newton-meters-to-foot-pounds-conversion.html

3687 Ft/Lbs of non-penetrating force. Surprising isn't it.:D
 
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