Obama declining his hand over his heart.
- Thread starter Hello123
- Start date
cool hand luke 22:36
New member
Years ago I'd have agreed with you. At one time, there were plenty of folks to the left hand side of the political spectrum who showed great patriotism through service in WWII for example. George McGovern flew dozens of bomber missions over Europe in WWII for one example.
That generation is passing the scene. In fact, even the Vietnam era lefties who served with distinction like Medal of Honor winner Bob Kerry are largely gone.
Today, the political left in America is characterized shrilly anti-American outfits like Code Pink, MoveOn.Org and Obama's Church.
Show me one of these groups that doesn't spell America as Amerika or, better yet, AmeriKKKa as Obama's pastor of 20 years does.
For starters, those groups do not represent the political left any more than this forum represents the political right. Sorry but there is no singular, collective consciousness anywhere on the political spectrum.
Second, this is merely your interpretation of patriotism. You have no authority to define what is and isn't patriotism any more than I do.
That being said, the way they spell America - as if you can even prove that the organizations do so as policy and that right-wing organizations don't - is not an indicator as to which side is more patriotic. Please try again.
Second, this is merely your interpretation of patriotism. You have no authority to define what is and isn't patriotism any more than I do.
That being said, the way they spell America - as if you can even prove that the organizations do so as policy and that right-wing organizations don't - is not an indicator as to which side is more patriotic. Please try again.
cool hand luke 22:36
New member
Groups like MoveOn.org, the DailyKos, CodePink, etc. most certainly do represent the political left and have the membership numbers to prove it.
There is a collective wisdom on the political left just as there is on the right. Just because there isn't 100% absolute unanimity doesn't mean that large majorities on the left don't hold to common views, just as on the right.
No, an objective definition of patriotism does exist and it doesn't encompass the ranting of Rev. Wrong.
There are any number of websites available to you where you can view videos of Code Pink, International Answer and other leftist groups, all of whom will show legions of leftist demonstrators carrying hammer and sickle flags, and placards with American spelled as Amerika or Amerikka. And no, I don’t plan to search for the links to them.
No matter how much you claim it it's still not going to be true. They do not represent the left nor are they any less patriotic than you are.
Yes, an objective definition that you're ignoring. You have no authority to say that any of those organizations do not love this country as much - if not MORE - than you do.
This particular discussion was not about the Reverend, it was about you claiming that Obama's lack of patriotism (something else you're claiming that has no basis) is due to his liberal ideology.
And how much you wanna bet that for every link you can produce I can find one where a right-wing organization does the same damn thing or worse?
Seriously, if your interpretation of patriotism is spelling the country's name properly and putting your hand on your heart then I don't think anyone should really be worried about what you think is or isn't patriotic.
cool hand luke 22:36
New member
At this point it appears that you're going to just ignore reality and gainsay anthing you don't agree with.
Organizations like MoveOn.org, InternationalAnswer, etc. have the membership numbers, budgets, and gravitas in the left wing orbit that shows they are representative of leftist thought in America. Or do organizations with hundreds of thousands of members and that can muster similar numbers for antiwar demonstrations not count somehow?
You can claim "it isn't true" until the cows come home, solid evidence that would convinve any open minded person is abundent.
Example: A Code Pink demonstrator, who was invited to attend a House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee session by Chairman Tom Lantos (D-CA), attacking Secretary of State Rice:
How is Code Pink able to get this access, at the behest of Rep. Lantos (D-CA) one of the leaders of the political left in America, if they aren't in the leftist mainstream?
No, again you're simply gainsaying anything you disagree with. Actions and statements by the political left in this country, which include things like thier expressed hope that the US military is defeated in Iraq, are clearly unpatriotic by any objective definition.
Obama's refusal to show the common respect for the symbols of this nation, together with his tacit approval of 20 years of the rabid anti-Americanism of his pastor are strong indicators of a lack of patriotism on his part.
(BTW- his support for UN taxing authority over Americans is another.)
Strawman argument, I never said that one couldn't. Look at the Stormfront website sometime for some extremely unpatriotic images and statements.
The shrill anti-Americanism of the political left goes well beyond minor things like refusing to stand for the National Anthem or refusing to place thier hand over thier heart. And again, another strawman argument here, I never said that these things were the primary indicators of a lack of patriotism on the political left.
Come on down to Washington D.C. sometime. I'll take you over to watch the daily "Code Pink" harassment of the wounded Gulf War Vets outside the Walter Reed Army Medical Center gates. Or perhaps such actions fall within your definition of patriotic behavior.
Last edited:
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Man made definitions of who is the correct believer in a particular religious doctrine are laughable.
The Shia and Sunnis debate who is the real Muslim. Some Orthodox Jews feel that Reformed Jews aren't real Jews.
You won't know if you are a true believer till you meet your maker.
Like I said before, I've lost respect for most candidates in this election because they feel necessary to pass some religious test of bleating about their faith.
Since when do you have to prove you are religious to be President?
When ministers preached segregation during the Civil Rights movement - were they Christians? They thought so.
In all cases, we have NOT seen any supernatural confirmation of anyone's true believer status. Until we do, folks are just talking about their belief system with no proof that they really speak the will of the divine.
The Shia and Sunnis debate who is the real Muslim. Some Orthodox Jews feel that Reformed Jews aren't real Jews.
You won't know if you are a true believer till you meet your maker.
Like I said before, I've lost respect for most candidates in this election because they feel necessary to pass some religious test of bleating about their faith.
Since when do you have to prove you are religious to be President?
When ministers preached segregation during the Civil Rights movement - were they Christians? They thought so.
In all cases, we have NOT seen any supernatural confirmation of anyone's true believer status. Until we do, folks are just talking about their belief system with no proof that they really speak the will of the divine.
"Since when do you have to prove you are religious to be President?"
I never stated or implied that religion had anything to do with being the president. What I did state was that the referrals to Senator Obama being a Christian should be corrected. If very basic morals and values cannot be applied to a religious title, then I guess you can't define a single religion on this planet, and therefore we shouldn't use these titles at all.
I never stated or implied that religion had anything to do with being the president. What I did state was that the referrals to Senator Obama being a Christian should be corrected. If very basic morals and values cannot be applied to a religious title, then I guess you can't define a single religion on this planet, and therefore we shouldn't use these titles at all.
JuanCarlos
New member
Maybe so. In general, though, there are enough subsets of Christianity that hold broad enough beliefs that trying to define a person (or church) as Christian or not isn't particularly useful. And trying to claim another church isn't Christian because they hold different beliefs or doctrine to yours is nothing new. I went to a church (conservative Baptist) for a while whose members would often refer to Catholics as "non-Christians."
Additionally, voting against a ban on something is not the same as "supporting" it. I can believe something is morally wrong, and still support the right to do it. Easy examples are pornography, alcohol, or drugs. For a politician of faith, there is a fine line that must need to be walked between your personal beliefs, and the oaths you took to uphold the rights of the citizens you serve.
Abortion is a more difficult question, for reasons that are beyond the scope of this forum. However, I'd point out that the second-largest Protestant church in this country officially holds a pro-choice stance, and IIRC backed Clinton's veto on a partial-birth abortion ban. But I'm sure the United Methodist Church isn't a Christian church, either.
So. Catholics aren't Christians, Methodists aren't Christians...who else? We could probably play this game all day. It doesn't end well, though.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Given the wide range of horrors conducted on the aegis of various religions, it is probably a good idea not to immediately assume a 'religious' or 'nonreligious' person is moral.
Most religions condone some awful things and then also preach basic moral principles.
If one thinks Obama's or Bush's stand on an issue is moral is a decision, you have to make - how they title themselves really doesn't decide their morality.
Most religions condone some awful things and then also preach basic moral principles.
If one thinks Obama's or Bush's stand on an issue is moral is a decision, you have to make - how they title themselves really doesn't decide their morality.
JuanCarlos
New member
Well, then educate yourself. Wikipedia, for what it's worth, but feel free to follow the cite and peruse the church's website to verify (I did).
wikipedia said:
Note that this is not just Obama's specific congregation, but the overall denomination of which it is a member.
So now we have the Catholic Church, the United Methodist Church, and the United Church of Christ that aren't Christians. I wonder who else...
I could say the same exact thing.
See the problem is that you're confusing anti-war with the leftist ideology, making the erroneous assumption that just because they're against the war that they represent the liberal ideology. Neither is inherently dependent on the other; they are not mutually inclusive. You're also still making the mistake that the anti-war movement is not patriotic.
Maybe the same way the NRA is able to get access to leaders of the political right even though they don't represent the righty mainstream? Hurr.
And once again, you're not only assuming that the anti-war position is specific to the left but you're implying that all left leaning folk (I guess we can use the word liberals?) are hoping for military defeat in Iraq. Or even the majority. Or even a significant portion.
That's simply your view and still doesn't alter the definition of patriotism nor does it justify pushing your belief that ones patriotism is shown by one's actions in front of the flag. There are pictures of Obama with his hand on his heart during the pledge and he sometimes leads the Senate in saying the pledge.
What you define as common respect does not necessarily mean others have to be held to that standard. I don't put my hand on my chest during the pledge. I don't even say it. But that in no way makes me less patriotic than you nor does it make me respect the flag any less.
One logical fallacy in response to another. You're welcome.
Again, your perception. Doesn't make your view correct.
I've found I'm pretty liberal on a number of issue but that in no way makes me anti-American nor does it make anyone else that disagrees with the war or conservative beliefs anti-American. Again, patriotism is not a left/right issue. The right does not have a monopoly on it nor does it get to define it.
But those were the things you brought up and were referring to when claiming that anti-american beliefs stem from the left. Not my fault if they were the crux of your argument.
Sure, then we can go to Topeka and I'll take you over to watch the Westboro Baptist Church harassment. But again, another strawman in response to your own logical fallacy. Daily harassment of wounded vets, huh? You sure it's not harassment of the government that deployed them in the first place? Or can you show evidence of them actually harassing individual vets every single day?
Bitch all you want about Code Pink but they don't represent the left as a whole nor is what they're doing - trying to stop a war they don't believe in - inherently unpatriotic. Some of their methods may be distasteful but what you're talking about doesn't even represent Code Pink as a whole. I may not agree with their methods - and in some cases, their message - but I don't call them anti-American or unpatriotic.
Back to the original point: patriotism is not a left/right issue. Obama's decision to not put his hand on his heart during that photo op does nothing to show him as a "lefty" unless you're putting your bias on top of it.
Kreyzhorse
New member
I won't vote for him but it won't be because he won't place his hand over his heart. If he doesn't feel inclined to do so, I can accept his opinion.
Going after him for this smacks of a tad bit of McCarthyism. Personally, I think we've seen too much McCarthyism lately.
toybox99615
New member
I agree McCarthy would be proud
to see how many he has converted to his ideals.
to see how many he has converted to his ideals.
cool hand luke 22:36
New member
Thanks for making my point so completely for me.
You maintain that groups like CodePink, MoveOn.org, etc. aren't at all representative of the political left.
And the point is this: there is hard evidence that the scum from the Westboro Baptist Church aren't representative of the political right in this country. That evidence is in the form of strong, universal condemnation by the political right of the views and actions of the Westboro Baptist Church. This condemnation includes massive counter demonstrations against the Westboro scum at funerals for the fallen soldiers.
Now, please show me which mainstream leftists have condemned the actions of CodePink, International Answer, MoveON.org, and others for their reprehensible, unpatriotic actions in harassing the vets at Walter Reed, and in running ads like the "General Betray Us" smear, etc. Where are the leftist counter demonstrators at Walter Reed and the Vietnam Veterans Memorial?
You won't find any such condemnation because these groups do indeed represent the mainstream of the political left in America, and they aren't going to condemn themselves now are they.
Thanks again for making my point so effectively
And...
It's OK to you so long as they only harass the vets on alternate Tuesdays?
It's very inappropriate to hold any kind of anti-war demonstration at the front gate of the hospital treating the wounded vets. They and thier families have enough to worry about without a bunch of leftist moonbats shrilly reminding the vets that they consider their sacrifice to be worthless. ANY such anti-war demonstration at the front gate of WRAMC constitutes harassment of the wounded vets.
Last edited: