Not all liberals are anti-gun

[Redworm]

Utter nonsense. All I see in the paper is the liberal/left attacking the judeo-christian values that founded this nation.

You must be reading a very issue specific paper because when I read the Chicago Tribune I see plenty of other newsworthy topics aside from the so-called war on christianity.

Also, just because the country was founded on certain values does not mean they were good values to begin with. Women weren't allowed to vote, slavery was legal, and the natives of this land were forced from their homes by conquering white guys who only cared about their own freedom without regard to others. Those judeo-christian valued you mentioned were also the basis for events like the Salem Witch Trails as well as the slaughter of the "savages" that wouldn't comform to the Puritan ideals.

Wasn't the whole point of the whole "freedom of religion" bit in the first ammendment to keep the government from imposing a state sponsored religion on people? Christmas is a federal holiday, liquor laws that prohibit drinking on Sundays are derived directly from the (misunderstood) idea of the sabbath, and the Ten Commandments don't belong in a school because the very first one demands acceptance of that religion.

While many of the attacks on christianity are undeserved and overblown, many of the attacks are well justified because the conservative right is trying to impose its' own religious values on people who have the same protection from a state sponsored religion as you have protection from illegal search and seizure.

 

[model 25]

I believe that there are some rights that are sacred. The right to pursue your own happiness, your own lifestyle, your own religion, to maintain your privacy, to make the life for yourself that you see fit, and I favor protecting the little guy and the downtrodden from oppression and tyranny. I guess I put the liberal in libertarian. Along those lines, I think the individual and not the state should get to choose how one defends oneself.

Let me persue these a little if I might. You list basicly that you think people should be able to live a lifestyle they see fit as long as they don't infringe on others. Free from tyrany and oppression. Now I will try to show you how the liberal party is so far away from you.

The liberals without a doubt have led the charge to take away your guns. The liberals, starting with the anti smoking NAZIS using health issues, are the ones most apt to stop any life style they don't like at the time. You watch as they get more control how they will even go so far as to tell you what you can eat and when.

The liberals are the least likely to let you have privacy starting all the way back to your Social Security card. What can you do now without it?

Who started the ghettos they call home projects and look at them now. Talk about oppressed, some of them it is illegal to even own a gun.

I submit to you that you have always been on the wrong side because in your listing of values the democrats are not doing anything you believe in.

25

 

[Rebar]

many of the attacks are well justified because the conservative right is trying to impose its' own religious values on people who have the same protection from a state sponsored religion as you have protection from illegal search and seizure.

Nonsense. This so-called "imposition" has been part of America since the founding, to somehow blame the boogie-man of "state-sponsered" religion on conservatives, is absurd. The ten commandments is the foundation of Western law, so what if it's honored as such in a courtroom. If you don't like "blue laws", lobby to have them changed, big deal. I don't see that "in god we trust" on our money as a serious threat to anyone's liberties.

As for the Salem Witch Trails, need I remind you that happened more then 100 years before America was founded? Sure, you can delve back hundreds or thousands of years to cherrypick horrors done by so-called religious people. That's hardly pertinent. What is, is that the left is imposing it's values, or rather the lack of them, on all of America, usually by means of unelected activist judges. The judeo-christian values the left is soooooo afraid of, have been here for 300 years, they just didn't magically appear upon Bush's inauguration.

The left insist we worship the state, not a god, thus their war on religion. Because the one thing the liberal/left hates most of all, is competition. So they created this whole issue that the mean old conservatives will force you to be christians, which is rediculous. No one is forcing you to do anything you don't want, at least not on the conservative side. It's the liberal/left, the "progressives", that want to tell you what to think, what to say or not say, who to like and who to hate.

 

[Redworm]

The ten commandments is the foundation of Western law, so what if it's honored as such in a courtroom.

I am God your Lord, who brought you out of Egypt, from the place of slavery. Do not have any other gods before Me.

I'm sorry but what does that have to do with upholding the law? The belief in a single god is not the foundation for western law and to imply that any aspect of our government should be based on it goes directly against the first ammendment.

As for the Salem Witch Trails, need I remind you that happened more then 100 years before America was founded?

But those trials were based on the so-called "values" of the judeo-christian viewpoint that you're arguing is being attacked.

emember the Sabbath to keep it holy. You can work during the six weekdays and do all your tasks. But Saturday is the Sabbath to God your Lord. Do not do anything that constitutes work.

Can it be assumed that you've never worked on Saturday? Otherwise are you not defying the very values that you claim are so important to this country?

What is, is that the left is imposing it's values, or rather the lack of them,

Opinion. You are not more an authority on what constitutes morality as I am. The left is imposing its' values on the nation no more or no less than the right is.

The left insist we worship the state, not a god, thus their war on religion.

In what form has the left demanded that the state be worshipped in lieu of a god? What if none is worshipped?

No one is forcing you to do anything you don't want, at least not on the conservative side.

Untrue because I don't want this:

Do not bow down to [such gods] or worship them. I am God your Lord, a God who demands exclusive worship.

to be forced upon school children in state funded institutions. Yeah, the part about not stealing, not killing, being faithful to one's spouse, and honoring thy parents is all well and nice but you seem to have forgotten that the first half of the commandments have no business in a government which is founded on a document that clearly states, in no uncertain terms, that said government will not impose a religion upon the people.

If you're going to support the second ammendment it's highly recommended that you support the first right along with it.

 

[TimRB]

"In what form has the left demanded that the state be worshipped in lieu of a god?"

Well, it has demanded that we all offer up plenty of sacrifices. That would be "taxes" to me.

Tim

 

[Rebar]

The belief in a single god is not the foundation for western law and to imply that any aspect of our government should be based on it goes directly against the first ammendment.

Historical revisionism at it's worst. The fact is judeo-christain values are interwoven into Western culture. The ten commandments are the foundation of Western law, this is indisputable. Of course, it's been modified and tempered through the centuries, for example no one cares if you believe in one god or another, or none, today. You're guarenteed freedom of religion, not freedom from any mention of religion ever. Are you willing to chisel the 10 commandments off the wall of the supreme court, just because it might offend you?

But those trials were based on the so-called "values" of the judeo-christian viewpoint that you're arguing is being attacked.

Again you have to go back centuries to prove some kind of point. If we really were talking about values from 450 years ago, you'd have a lot more to be concerned with then the 10 commandments.

Can it be assumed that you've never worked on Saturday? Otherwise are you not defying the very values that you claim are so important to this country?

I have worked on a Saturday, and some Sundays too. And you know what? I wasn't burned at the stake. In fact I was paid time and a half. Again you're trying to equate what was done hundreds of years ago to today, which is totally irrelivent.

The left is imposing its' values on the nation no more or no less than the right is.

Untrue. The left takes it's values, and makes them law. The left hates guns, so it makes them illegal. The left decided that free speech is great, unless it meeting their definition of "hate speech", which they will kick you out of college for. The left decided that blacks should be helped, so they make discrimination against whites legal. The list is nearly endless. Compare that to volentary school prayer, and letting the boy scouts use a classroom after hours.

be forced upon school children in state funded institutions.

I know of no public school that does this, or plans to do this. More scare mongering from the left.

it's highly recommended that you support the first right along with it.

The left is where the censorship is coming from, they want to stifle the free speech of the religous to protect the anti-religious bigots from any contact with what the vast majority of Americans believe.

 

[Redworm]

Are you willing to chisel the 10 commandments off the wall of the supreme court, just because it might offend you?

They don't offend me at all and I don't really care if they offend anyone else. Let them stay on the Supreme Court and as long as no law is ever made that says I can't have any other gods before the one mentioned in them, it's fine by me. On the other hand schoolchildren should not have the act of murder associated with not believing in god or working on the sabbath.

You say that the ten commandments are the foundation of western law but you contradict yourself; it seems only some of the commandments are the foundation for western law because I see no law prohibiting the worship of false idols.

Untrue. The left takes it's values, and makes them law. The left hates guns, so it makes them illegal.

The right wants to make many things that it hates illegal as well. You still haven't provided me with that information we talked about (I would've started that thread but I was advised against it...in fact since this argument is getting so close to the religious bit I'd rather take this to PM but I know that some people prefer to discuss in the open forum; like I said before, I just don't want to step on toes and get the thread locked, y'know?)

The left decided that blacks should be helped, so they make discrimination against whites legal.

Yeah, I certainly don't agree with that stuff. Not everyone on the left believes that any more than everyone on the right believes everything in the conservative agenda. The world isn't blak & white, dude, there are many shades of gray.

Compare that to volentary school prayer, and letting the boy scouts use a classroom after hours.

That bothers me. I don't see why kids shouldn't be allowed to pray when they see fit (as long as the muslim students are allowed to kneel and pray their way and as long as the other kids of whatever other religions are allowed to do their own thing on their own time...everyone equal). I also don't see the problem with boy scouts using a classroom after hours; where has this been an issue? When I was boy scout we were always allowed to use school and state property for our functions given that we provided enough notification (mainly because we took the time to really clean the place up and make it look better than when we got there).

I know of no public school that does this, or plans to do this. More scare mongering from the left.

I think the first time it was struck down was 1984 in Kentucky. It's been in the news many times over the past few years and to think that the conservative right wouldn't put them up there if it had the chance is kinda silly. Would you support posting the laws of another religion alongside the decalogue?

It's not scare mongering any more than touting the right to bear arms to protect against tyranny is scare mongering. Or is it only scare mongering when it's suggesting something bad about the ideas you hold dear?

The left is where the censorship is coming from, they want to stifle the free speech of the religous to protect the anti-religious bigots from any contact with what the vast majority of Americans believe.

You mean the right isn't the leading side in censoring tv and radio? So far the only Democrat I've seen touting censorship in the name of "decency" is Zel Miller and it's part of the reason I won't vote for him again. The anti-religious have as much right to voice their beliefs as the religious.

 

[Rebar]

fact since this argument is getting so close to the religious

Indeed, so I'm not going to go too deep into it.

The anti-religious have as much right to voice their beliefs as the religious.

This I agree 100% with. But the left is trying to make voicing religious beliefs illegal, which is the point. No one is trying to shut down air-america or any other left-wing media source, it's the left that wants to clamp down on traditional American values.

Simply put, the hysteria the liberal/left is putting out about religion, is the same hysteria of "blood in the streets" after the AWB expired. The idea that America is going to become a "theocracy" is patently stupid, but it does seem to be resonating with the same type of folks who believed Bush was going to bring back the draft.

The truth is, if there was going to be a theocracy, it would have happened a long time ago when America was far more religious and 99.99% christian. It can't happen, it won't happen, and really no one wants it to happen. It's pure propaganda BS.

 

[Redworm]

This I agree 100% with. But the left is trying to make voicing religious beliefs illegal, which is the point. No one is trying to shut down air-america or any other left-wing media source, it's the left that wants to clamp down on traditional American values.

My only beef with that is in thinking that "traditional" American values should be imposed upon those of us that don't agree. As I mentioned before, slavery and keeping women from voting were also "traditional" values but those were deemed immoral. So just because the right feels that certain things are immoral doesn't mean that it's correct in its' assertion and that those that disagree should be forced to conform to value that, as you yourself stated, stem strongly from a religion.

Simply put, the hysteria the liberal/left is putting out about religion, is the same hysteria of "blood in the streets" after the AWB expired. The idea that America is going to become a "theocracy" is patently stupid, but it does seem to be resonating with the same type of folks who believed Bush was going to bring back the draft.

The truth is, if there was going to be a theocracy, it would have happened a long time ago when America was far more religious and 99.99% christian. It can't happen, it won't happen, and really no one wants it to happen. It's pure propaganda BS.

I don't see many people fearing a theocracy any more than gun owners fear having to fight off tyranny any time in the near future. But while those christians should never be forced to suppress their beliefs those of other faiths or no faith should never be forced to follow the rules of christianity. Of the ten commandments how many have actual basis in US law?

 

[Rebar]

But while those christians should never be forced to suppress their beliefs those of other faiths or no faith should never be forced to follow the rules of christianity.

And since this isn't happening, then what's the issue?

 

[progunner1957]

Freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

Nowhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights does the phrase, "separation of church and state" appear.

 

[Redworm]

And since this isn't happening, then what's the issue?

You yourself just said that the ten commandments are the foundation for western law and half of those commandments are not moral codes but rather requirements to belief in god.

The issue is that many of the stances from the right are drawn directly from their religious beliefs. Most of those issues involve determining what constitutes a human life and whether or not things put forth in the bible should determine the social interactions of people. It's happening just as much as the "war on christianity" is happening.

Freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

Nowhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights does the phrase, "seperation of church and state" appear.

I realize that the latter is true.

I don't care what others believe and I don't care if they shout it at the top of their lungs, it doesn't offend me. But your religion, nor anyone else's religion, should ever direct the course of my life. I don't think you'd want someone else's religion controlling you so why does the right demand that the "traditional american values" be defined by their religious beliefs? To impose religious beliefs on someone in the form of law is to deny that very freedom of religion.


If by some unlikely sequence of events the majority of our government was jewish would you support a constitutional ammendment banning the consumption of pork? Not much different from what the right wants.

 

[Rebar]

You yourself just said that the ten commandments are the foundation for western law and half of those commandments are not moral codes but rather requirements to belief in god.

Yet it created the foundation of the United States of America, which is the most tolerant, most free country in history.

The issue is that many of the stances from the right are drawn directly from their religious beliefs. Most of those issues involve determining what constitutes a human life and whether or not things put forth in the bible should determine the social interactions of people.

Nonsense. Plenty of christian people are in fact liberals, do they get their ideology from the same place as conservatives? And how people want to interact with others is their own business, are you afraid a "fundimentalist" is going to break down your door and drag you to church, or make you look at a christmas tree? Of course not. You've been looking at too much left wing propaganda is all.

The fact is no one cares what religion, if any, you are, no one is checking how often or what church you go to, if any. The liberal/left, on the other hand, cares very much if you own guns, and is committed to taking them away from you. Which is the greater threat, the non-issue of religous people, or the very real threat from the liberal/left? I know where I'd put my money.

 

[Redworm]

Yet it created the foundation of the United States of America, which is the most tolerant, most free country in history.

That still wouldn't change the fact that the values of one's religion should in no way affect the direction of my life.

Nonsense. Plenty of christian people are in fact liberals, do they get their ideology from the same place as conservatives? And how people want to interact with others is their own business, are you afraid a "fundimentalist" is going to break down your door and drag you to church, or make you look at a christmas tree? Of course not. You've been looking at too much left wing propaganda is all.

They do but as with any religion the ideals are wide open to interpretation. The liberal christians tend to avoid directing how people interact with each other. Yes, how people want to interact is their own business so why does the conservative right want to pass ammendments to keep people from doing just that?

They're not going to make me look at a christmas tree but they certainly will keep some of my friends from doing what no government should be allowed to restrict.

The fact is no one cares what religion, if any, you are, no one is checking how often or what church you go to, if any. The liberal/left, on the other hand, cares very much if you own guns, and is committed to taking them away from you. Which is the greater threat, the non-issue of religous people, or the very real threat from the liberal/left? I know where I'd put my money.

I consider both threats equally dangerous. I see the first ammendment as important as the second. No more, no less. No party that threatens either one will have my support. But not all conservatives want to control my social interactions and not all liberals want to take my guns.

Why do you think the world is so black and white? The "if you're not with us you're against us" bit doesn't really work as well as many would think. So what would I be defined as per my descriptions above? Liberal? I like guns. Conservative? I like freedom of choice.

 

[GoSlash27]

Progunner,
Neither does the 2nd explicitly guarantee your right to bear arms. You don't want to drag out that sorry argument around me. We all know exactly what the intent was and it was "separation of church and state" just as stated by Jefferson.

 

[Redworm]

"shall not be infringed" seems pretty clear cut to me


On a side note I'd like to thank Rebar and model25 and everyone else that was willing to discuss issues with me. I have many dissenting points of view and I appreciate everyone's willingness to have a civil debate over them so I can better inform myself.

Have a good week, everyone.

 

[Rebar]

Yes, how people want to interact is their own business so why does the conservative right want to pass ammendments to keep people from doing just that?

If you're talking about gay "marrage", well that's been illegal since the founding of the republic, why are you blaming todays conservatives for that?

I'd also point out that it remained illegal though the 38 years when democrats ran this country, where was Carter on the issue, where was Clinton on the issue? And that every time this question was put on a ballot, it's been defeated by wide margins.

So this isn't a conservative-liberal issue, it is a traditional values vs. radical proposal. Plus, most conservatives are for civil unions, so the issue is moot anyway. Hardly worth voting for the gun-grabbing party, especially since they've been the same on it all along.

 

[TheBluesMan]

For the most part this thread has remained polite, so it kind of pains me to close it. However, the topic of discussion has clearly shifted to religion and other topics which have proven once again to be divisive issues.

I can think of no other closing words more eloquent and to-the-point than those posted above by Glenn.

Nothing will come from continuing this debate.

The proponents of the RKBA simply need to work for the issue independent of all the other crap they believe in.

If you are not able to separate this and reject supporters of the RKBA because they have other values that you think MUST come with RKBA support - then you are doing this cause a disservice.

I have gay shooting and liberal shooting friends and very conservative shooting friends. We shoot together and support the RKBA. That's the way it should be.