Not all liberals are anti-gun

[model 25]

If you think you've got a better chance winning without me than with me, there's no helping you.


LOL the war to save our guns willnever end as long as we have liberal socialist. I know I have fought it for many years, if you guys want guns you are going to have to fight for them too.

.if you keep your religion to yourself, I'll keep mine to myself.

Your science is your religion and I know this because you posted it. Hope it gets you where you want to go Ever think about the foundation you are building on and how it has led you to the political party you choose?



25

edited to go on LOL

Your scientific beliefs have created a monster of a civilization that has murdered millions. All of this to get away from religion. Look at the liberal party and what they stand for, it is all secular humanism. Without the backing of "scientist" it would never happen.

 

[Rebar]

they're without basis in fact and make you look like a narrow-minded moron.

You call yourself a "progressive", that's all anyone needs to know. Like I said, this ideology is no mystery to those who have been fighting leftism and what it's goals are. Liberalism, leftism, fabianism, "progressive", socialism, it's all the same rotten agenda wrapped in different lies.

We don't need or want "allies" who pretend to honor the 2nd amendment only to advance the rest of their left-wing agenda. If you haven't noticed, we're doing quite well with the republicans in charge. Besides the end of the AWB, we got protection for firearms manufacturers on the national level, and on the state level republicans took us from 10 to 38 shall issue states, the Florida castle doctrine, and a lot of other RKBA wins. This despite ferocious opposition from the left-wing, including those people who call themselves "progressives". Hey, isn't that what you call yourself?

So we have proven results from the republican party, and proven enemies in the democratic party. "Infiltrate" all you want, common sense tells anyone who's concerned about the RKBA where their vote should go.

 

[0utlier]

Helmetcase, you kind of jumped into the lions den throwing around words like "progressive" to express your political leanings. I'm sure there are some "progressives" who are gun rights advocates, not many though. The overarching ideals of "progressives" just don't gel with the self-reliance, limited government, and personal freedom ideals that generally encompass RKBA folks. That's why you are getting so much flak. It's just hard to imagine _YOU_ consider yourself a “progressive”, yet have this gun-rights streak running through you. It verges on being an oxymoron.

The VAST majority of your fellow “progressives” don't value the 2nd as you espouse to. More power to you though. I hope you can change some minds. I spend time perusing DU and DailyKos, and many who consider themselves “progressives” truly are the lunatic fringe. You seem a little more grounded though. There may be hope for you yet . Good luck with your website.

 

[Helmetcase]

Your scientific beliefs have created a monster of a civilization that has murdered millions. All of this to get away from religion. Look at the liberal party and what they stand for, it is all secular humanism. Without the backing of "scientist" it would never happen.

Sounds like you're completely ignorant of what science does. Science is a methodology: make observations, form hypothesis, test it, and repeat. It doesn't create civilizations, it's simply a tool for making yourself smarter, and in that regard it beats the daylights out of religion. Religion has its place, but it can't supplant science. It's like using your necktie for trousers. One can't do the other's job. Besides, look at all the millions of people killed over religion in the past 2000 years. Science has no such blood on its hands. Any more than math class or music class does.

We don't need or want "allies" who pretend to honor the 2nd amendment only to advance the rest of their left-wing agenda. If you haven't noticed, we're doing quite well with the republicans in charge.

I'm pretending? Then why am I building a website, making calls, lobbying, etc? I'm doing more than you are I'll wager. You're doing quite well eh? Well, why can't I carry a CCW? There's still work to be done, and even if there wasn't, as soon as you stop being diligent your rights are taken away, so quit patting yourself on the back. That's the kind of dangerous attitude that got us in this situation in the first place. And if you're going to try to tie all that other crap to me, I'm simply going to assume that you're a reactionary neo fascist who has to answer for all the people that philosophy has killed.

So we have proven results from the republican party, and proven enemies in the democratic party. "Infiltrate" all you want, common sense tells anyone who's concerned about the RKBA where their vote should go.

That will change eventually thanks to people like me. You want more enemies, or fewer?

It's just hard to imagine _YOU_ consider yourself a “progressive”, yet have this gun-rights streak running through you. It verges on being an oxymoron.

No it doesn't! It all stems from the same belief that individuals should be free to make personal decisions about important choices in life. The contradiction is on the parts of the anti-gunners who support the freedom to choose your mate, your religion, your lifestyle, your political affiliation, etc. but don't support the right to choose to defend yourself. They're the hypocrites! I'm the one who's internally consistent.

 

[GoSlash27]

HelmetCase,
Don't worry, I get it even if some of the more...err...reactionary members around here don't.
These folks have labeled plenty of the members on this board as "liberals"; far too many to pretend that a 'pro-gun liberal' is a rarity. To hear them tell it, there's more 'pro-gun liberals' on this board than conservatives!

 

[Helmetcase]

What's funny Slash is that someone referenced the DU board. If you go there, you'll see that the pro gunners like me outnumber the antis by 10 to 1 at least. Gun control is routinely shouted down, and rightly so, as the biggest political albatross we face and a morally bankrupt position. How can you support abortion rights, gay rights, free speech rights, religious freedoms, educational freedoms, but think only agents of the State should be allowed to defend themselves? It's a hypocritical position, and there are more than a few of us who grasp that. Good on ya, Slash.

I think a lot of people like to see the world in absolutes, in black and white. They want to see the world as their side vs the enemies, and to see someone contradict that binary view is threatening to them.

 

[GoSlash27]

I am a member of both RedState *and* DailyKos. Both websites are extremist echo-chambers but it's fun to push their buttons.
What there is no getting around is the fact that most Americans favor some level of gun control and more of them are on the left. You may not be as much of an oddity as these people would like to believe, but you're definitely in the minority.
Nevertheless, if you just have to pick one party over the other I think you picked the one that more closely aligns with your beliefs and ultimately the one that more closely aligns with the Bill of Rights.

 

[Rebar]

I'm doing more than you are I'll wager.

And you'd lose.

Well, why can't I carry a CCW?

Because you live in a blue "progressive" state. If you lived in a red "reactionary" state, you could. Ironic, huh?

That's the kind of dangerous attitude that got us in this situation in the first place.

I fight the left-wing policies that are the cause of anti-RKBA in the first place. The same left-wing "progressive" policies you endorse. If you were really interested in the RKBA, you'd be a republican.

And if you're going to try to tie all that other crap to me, I'm simply going to assume that you're a reactionary neo fascist who has to answer for all the people that philosophy has killed.

Fascism is an ideology of the left, and as a leftist, it's you who needs to answer for their crimes. I despise the left under all their different disguises, I have nothing to answer for.

That will change eventually thanks to people like me. You want more enemies, or fewer?

We don't need more leftist claptrap in America, we need less, far less. Your agenda has had it's chance - and has been a dismal failure. From FDR's "new deal" (bad deal if you ask me), to the "great society" (3 trillion dollars down the toilet), "progressives" had all the time and money in the world to get their socialist utopia to work. It hasn't, and it never will. It also has been the driving force in the war against the 2nd amendment. You can call and write Schumer, Fienstien, and the entire democratic establishment all you want, they're ideologically 100% committed to total civilian disarmament. To be a "pro-gun progressive" is like being a catholic who doesn't believe in the pope, whatever you think, you're not a catholic.

 

[Redworm]

To be a "pro-gun progressive" is like being a catholic who doesn't believe in the pope, whatever you think, you're not a catholic.

Well I don't think it's possible to not believe in the existence of the Pope, I mean he's on TV all the time. But one can be a follower of the Catholic faith without believing that the Pope is a conduit to God. Any good little altar boy can tell you that recognizing the authority of the Pope is not a requirement for the communion between onesself and Christ.

What would you classify someone that has these beliefs:

1. That we are all owners of our respective bodies and have the right to treat them as we see fit including deciding the chemicals that go into them.
2. We should all be allowed to defend ourselves as we see fit.
3. Any two consenting adults should be allowed to marry.
4. Science belongs in classrooms, religion belongs in churches.
5. I should be allowed to perform a service for someone and get paid for it without government oversight.
6. My tax dollars should be used for defense, infrastructure, debt repayment, the most minimal of government regulation and administration but not any form of welfare or social security whatsoever; one should be allowed to choose when to help one's fellow citizens.
7. Protecting our borders is the most important thing to keeping terrorists off American land, but...
8. The process for work visas should be streamlined to encourage legal immigration and thus reduce the chances that someone with a dirty bomb will enter our land.
9. Bush and Co. mishandled the current conflict, failed to do the job they promised in Afghanistan, and misled people into supporting his Yeehad into Iraq but
10. Pulling out of Iraq now would be like pulling out of a woman after you get off. Yeah, we'd be out of there but the damage is already done and not finishing the job will leave us with a very angry bedmate.


I hold many liberal points of view but I also support a couple conservative points of view. Would you call me a liberal? If so then how can I possibly support gun ownership? And how could anyone with my beliefs in good conscience vote Republican when they stand against so many of the freedoms that I strongly believe in protecting by asserting that second ammendment right we all dearly love?

 

[model 25]

Sounds like you're completely ignorant of what science does. Science is a methodology: make observations, form hypothesis, test it, and repeat. It doesn't create civilizations, it's simply a tool for making yourself smarter, and in that regard it beats the daylights out of religion.

Ahhh yes LOL got a little time for the shoot so I will quickly reply to this. I will use just one argument though I have more as to how science and scientist have changed society for the worse. It took scientist to declare when life begins and because they say that the unborn are not babies they give the green light to kill millions of babies.

Cold hearted methodology with forming of hypothisis along with all the observations. A step from being human to allowing a killing machine to destroy the most innocent. If that is being educated I would prfure to be ignorant.

25

 

[Helmetcase]

Rebar, you seem like the type who'd argue that the sky is red if it supported your biased suppositions.

And you'd lose.

Oh yeah? Where's your website? What lobbying calls have you made this month? Where are you organizing with people to lobby in person? I'm activist. You're a keyboard warrior. Big difference.

Because you live in a blue "progressive" state. If you lived in a red "reactionary" state, you could. Ironic, huh?

Rather than run from a problem and leave it to others, I'm working to fix it. I'm proactive while you stick your head in the sand and pat yourself on the back for work that others have done.

I fight the left-wing policies that are the cause of anti-RKBA in the first place. The same left-wing "progressive" policies you endorse. If you were really interested in the RKBA, you'd be a republican.

That's a crock of the most succulent BS. Ignoring the fact that there are already progun Dems and anti Repubs, I refuse to join a party that advocates removing lots of other freedoms just to protect one specific one.

Fascism is an ideology of the left, and as a leftist, it's you who needs to answer for their crimes. I despise the left under all their different disguises, I have nothing to answer for.

There's you arguing that the sky is red. Fascism is the subjugation of the populace to the will of the state. Leftism and communism is the subjugation of the state to the proletariat, and thus the exact opposite. The fascists of lore were strictly anti-communist. Fascism is the State deciding who is and isn't allowed to have rights, and placing nationalism above individual rights. Although a few moonbats like you try to redefine it as communism, a great majority of political scholars recognize it as a far right wing ideology. Really it's a stupid thing to argue about. I'm as much a communist as you are a fascist. Persist with this nonsense as long as you care to continue making yourself look foolish.

Good post Redworm.

If that is being educated I would prfure to be ignorant.

I sure won't try to stop you.

 

[aspen1964]

..thank heaven I belong to a church and faith with practical values...

 

[Rebar]

But one can be a follower of the Catholic faith without believing that the Pope is a conduit to God. Any good little altar boy can tell you that recognizing the authority of the Pope is not a requirement for the communion between onesself and Christ.

To be a catholic, you have to believe that in matters of faith the pope is infallable. You can certainly be a Christian, but not of the catholic brand.

You're a keyboard warrior.

I've been fighting for the RKBA for 30+ years. Well before there were keyboards and websites. Most likely before you were born.

Rather than run from a problem and leave it to others, I'm working to fix it. I'm proactive while you stick your head in the sand and pat yourself on the back for work that others have done.

This makes no sense. You're working to put democrats, the party that hates guns, into office. I work to put republicans, the party that preserves our RKBA into office. Who's sticking their head into the sand, now?

I refuse to join a party that advocates removing lots of other freedoms just to protect one specific one.

Talk about a crock, pure moveon.org nonsense. The republicans are not "removing" any rights or freedoms. The left, on the other hand, are all about stripping our freedoms away, favoring the state over the individual.

Fascism is the subjugation of the populace to the will of the state. Leftism and communism is the subjugation of the state to the proletariat, and thus the exact opposite.

Leftism claims it's for the proletariat, but always degenerates into fascism and state control over every aspect of life, like what happened in the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, and North Korea. That the left wants state control over the individual is a point that cannot be contested. By any modern standard, fascism is a left-wing ideology. An ideology you're trying to shop here, well, we're not buying.

 

[Redworm]

By your definition the right may not be trying to remove any freedoms (I disagree) but they are certainly trying to keep certain freedoms away from people which is just as wrong. Not that the left is any better on other issues but still, it's pretty hypocritical on both ends of the spectrum. Each party has its' own definition of what's best for society yet both want to restrict freedoms that they simply don't agree with.

I guess my point is that I don't see why the idea of a pro-gun liberal is so strange.

 

[Helmetcase]

It's strange to people so jaded and narrow minded as to think that people have to either be from Column A or Column B, and that's it. In reality, I favor an open minded view of liberalism that doesn't require any man, woman, or child to be a victim or surrender the right of self defense. Essentially I'm trying to move liberals, Dems, and moderates of all sorts (and I reject Rebars binary view of the world as obviously too simplistic) back to our libertarian roots.

This makes no sense. You're working to put democrats, the party that hates guns, into office. I work to put republicans, the party that preserves our RKBA into office. Who's sticking their head into the sand, now?

I'm not trying to put anyone in particular into office. I'm simply recognizing that Dems aren't going anywhere, and rather than abandon the rest of my views on social and economic issues, I'm going to agitate for change from within. It's sticking your head into the sand to pretend that A) people can't change and B) that simply pulling levers for Republicans is enough.

Talk about a crock, pure moveon.org nonsense. The republicans are not "removing" any rights or freedoms. The left, on the other hand, are all about stripping our freedoms away, favoring the state over the individual.

It's time we get you a newspaper subscription. The RNC is pursuing the Christian right agenda on a myriad of social issues and removing all sorts of rights we all enjoy. I'm not trying to open this thread up to all those other topics, but you know what issues I'm talking about and it's definitely the RNC that's looking to remove choices legislatively.

As for the idea that I'm the fascist, I'm pretty sure that's not worth dignifying with a response beyond pointing out what a loon it makes you look like. In practice we all know that dictators of any stripe end up acting like fascists (the political spectrum in a pragmatic sense looks more like a horseshoe than a line), but those folks behave in ways that liberals like me categorically reject. Your efforts to pin them on me are futile, immature, and represent intellectual dishonesty in its most violent form.

 

[model 25]

Ahhh I am back and with the smell of fresh burnt gunpowder ablaze in my nostrils Had a bit of a senior moment and forgot my mags on the table so a good friend loaned me his L2A3 (sterling) subgun to shoot and I came in third------from last God what a riot. Best guy shot 48 targets in 50 seconds with mag changes and no shoots involved.


Quote:25
If that is being educated I would prefure to be ignorant.

helmut
I sure won't try to stop you.

Well it seems you can always teach snide remarks and comments. Your not winning in anything you say because of the tone of personality you have posted. You attack people personaly as you lose and you have no real crediblility to your arguements. Here read your stuff

I favor an open minded view of liberalism that doesn't require any man, woman, or child to be a victim or surrender the right of self defense.

You choose the side of those who kill the unborn, without any defense.

folks behave in ways that liberals like me

You are part of a party that steals guns if you call yourself a liberal. If you vote in liberals for your selected causes you are still voting in gun grabbers, is it worth it.

Let me ask you straight up no BS. What are the liberal values that you think you have to have in a party. List them as a priority. This is you so do it exactly the way you think.

25

 

[Helmetcase]

Sorry to be snide, but being anti-science simply isn't a position that is worthy of much consideration. I actually don't think you're anti-science, I think you're anti-some of the bad things that have been done in the name of secularism. The analogy I would draw is that you don't quit being a Christian because of the Crusades, right?

You choose the side of those who kill the unborn, without any defense.

We'll be here forever if we start debating a topic as complicated as abortion...but what I can say is that defending the right to choose and not defending the RKBA would be hypocritical. That's why I'M the one who's internally consistent, and the many libs who are anti gun are hypocrites.

Let me ask you straight up no BS. What are the liberal values that you think you have to have in a party. List them as a priority. This is you so do it exactly the way you think.

Without cluttering up the board with a full dissertation, I believe that there are some rights that are sacred. The right to pursue your own happiness, your own lifestyle, your own religion, to maintain your privacy, to make the life for yourself that you see fit, and I favor protecting the little guy and the downtrodden from oppression and tyranny. I guess I put the liberal in libertarian. Along those lines, I think the individual and not the state should get to choose how one defends oneself. My right to free expression stops at your chin, as they say. As long as I'm not harming you, and you're not harming me, we have harmony and freedom.

 

[Rebar]

Essentially I'm trying to move liberals, Dems, and moderates of all sorts (and I reject Rebars binary view of the world as obviously too simplistic) back to our libertarian roots.

Then you don't know what you're talking about. Simply put, your "progressive" values are diametrically opposed to libertarianism. And no, I have no tolerance for left-wing values, which crushes individual rights.

I'm not trying to put anyone in particular into office.

Now you're flat out lieing. If you're so opposed to republicans, who else will you be trying to help? Why put all this effort into "infiltrating" into the democratic party if you're not trying to help them get elected? Simply put, you're a partisan democrat who's here to cause dissention among gun owners.

It's sticking your head into the sand to pretend that A) people can't change and B) that simply pulling levers for Republicans is enough.

It's not enough, but it's a good start. The democrats won't change just because some guy starts a website, any cretin can do that. In fact, they're moving even further into anti-gun frenzy.

The RNC is pursuing the Christian right agenda on a myriad of social issues and removing all sorts of rights we all enjoy.

Utter nonsense. All I see in the paper is the liberal/left attacking the judeo-christian values that founded this nation.

As for the idea that I'm the fascist, I'm pretty sure that's not worth dignifying with a response beyond pointing out what a loon it makes you look like.

You're the one who opened the fascist can o' worms my friend. That fascism is the natural result of liberal/left ideology has been proven by history time and time again. If you choose that path, you have to accept all the baggage that comes with it.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Nothing will come from continuing this debate.

The proponents of the RKBA simply need to work for the issue independent of all the other crap they believe in.

If you are not able to separate this and reject supporters of the RKBA because they have other values that you think MUST come with RKBA support - then you are doing this cause a disservice.

I have gay shooting and liberal shooting friends and very conservative shooting friends. We shoot together and support the RKBA. That's the way it should be.

 

[progunner1957]

The problem is SOCIALISM

You call yourself a "progressive", that's all anyone needs to know. Like I said, this ideology is no mystery to those who have been fighting leftism and what it's goals are. Liberalism, leftism, fabianism, "progressive", socialism, it's all the same rotten agenda wrapped in different lies.

Your are 100% right, Rebar!!

I don't speak for anyone here but me, and only me. If you ride with outlaws then you are an outlaw. Don't say your a member of the democrat party but are against gun control, if you support the party then you support the platform.

I'll agree with you on that, Model 25.

Here's the deal, Helmetcase - you are sleeping with the enemy.

I did not make the Democratic party the stronghold of socialism that it has become - the socialists who took over the Democratic party did that.

Whether anyone likes it or not, Democrat = Socialist. There is no denying that fact. Further, Liberal = Socialist. There's no denying that fact, either.

Look at what Democrats and Liberals advocate -
1: Disarming We The People.
2: Arming to the teeth of police and all other agents of "The Government."
3: Autocratic rule of We The People by "the experts" (i.e., those with the proper political and/or academic breeding).
4: Replace the rights of We The People with privelages, given and taken away at the discretion of "the experts."
5: Ever increasing taxation of We The People to fund causes, projects and groups of people deemed worthy by "the experts."

This is the foundation on which the Liberal/Democrat/Socialist political philosophy is founded. It demands that We The People submit, conform and obey. It is diametrically opposed to every principle laid out in the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights.

As Model 25 said,

if you support the party then you support the platform.