Not all liberals are anti-gun
- Thread starter Helmetcase
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Helmetcase
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Pointer,
One of us has a misconception of what being a liberal is. I would politely suggest I probably have a better idea, but if I'm not one perhaps progressive suits you better? Hence the title of the webpage...
It's simple really. I believe that govt is at worst a necessary evil and at best sometimes both a pragmatic necessity and something that we naturally seek out for codifying and protecting those rights we assign ourselves as birthrights. It ain't perfect, but I'm hardly an anarchist and while I certainly have a libertarian streak (all real liberals do, its just too many have a blind spot on things like guns) I'm not really a Libertarian (note the capitalized "L"). I think I tend to believe in personal privacy as central in the pursuit of happiness thing the FF set out for us, and it makes me lean more to the liberal than the conservative in our society. Conservatives just happen to have it right more often than libs on the gun issue. But if you go to DemocraticUnderground.com, you'll see that we progunners are kicking the anti's teeth in. There is a DEFINITE movement within the Democratic constituency (which includes registered Independents like me) that you are underestimating. We're there, and we're growing. You should hope and pray that we do, because in many places like my home state, we're simply not going to win our rights back without a frank discussion with Dems and progressives everywhere.
One of us has a misconception of what being a liberal is. I would politely suggest I probably have a better idea, but if I'm not one perhaps progressive suits you better? Hence the title of the webpage...
It's simple really. I believe that govt is at worst a necessary evil and at best sometimes both a pragmatic necessity and something that we naturally seek out for codifying and protecting those rights we assign ourselves as birthrights. It ain't perfect, but I'm hardly an anarchist and while I certainly have a libertarian streak (all real liberals do, its just too many have a blind spot on things like guns) I'm not really a Libertarian (note the capitalized "L"). I think I tend to believe in personal privacy as central in the pursuit of happiness thing the FF set out for us, and it makes me lean more to the liberal than the conservative in our society. Conservatives just happen to have it right more often than libs on the gun issue. But if you go to DemocraticUnderground.com, you'll see that we progunners are kicking the anti's teeth in. There is a DEFINITE movement within the Democratic constituency (which includes registered Independents like me) that you are underestimating. We're there, and we're growing. You should hope and pray that we do, because in many places like my home state, we're simply not going to win our rights back without a frank discussion with Dems and progressives everywhere.
See above, I'm independent. But in my old age I'm getting pretty pragmatic and am not a single issue voter.
No they're not. How can you make absolute statements like that? It's like saying all hot dogs come in buns. Immediately you know it's not 100% true...and then eventually you examine the statement to realize there are so many exceptions to whatever rule you're trying to define that the rule itself is pointless. You're essentially trying to equate Stalinism with liberalism, and that will never fly. (Actually IIRC, Lenininst propaganda in the 1910's argued for an armed proletariat to throw off fascism, the Soviets didn't go gonzo on gun control until the uberfascist Stalin came to town in the late 1920s).
..I am not here to pick on anyone....but are those(a fine example is the ACLU crowd)..who wish to stamp out any form of Christianity that is displayed by others a form of liberalism?..remember that liberalism was defined here as individual liberties(or just those ideals that are trumped by liberals?)...looking at current events happening today in rapidity I would think that liberals are most narrow-minded towards others who don't share their views...who is stepping who's liberties here????..now with gun ownership as with other things it seems obvious that liberals like to BAN thing upon thing upon thing...a contradiction to personal liberty and freedom...another example..California likes to call itself a progressive state...California is progressively banning one thing after another in it's state...things that are not restricted in other states...what constitutes progressive in that way of thinking...a continuing contraction of what it's citizens are free to choose to do or own....progression??
Funny how after a big vote like SanFrancisco where democrats voted to take away guns that you come here and try to lessen what has just happened by saying not all demos are against guns. Excuse me for being synical here but the old saying goes"don't pee down my neck and tell me it's raining".
I simply don't believe anyone can support a party that just stole the guns and gun rights of Americans in SanFransico and tell us they are for our rights. I am calling it BS because I believe that is what it is.
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I simply don't believe anyone can support a party that just stole the guns and gun rights of Americans in SanFransico and tell us they are for our rights. I am calling it BS because I believe that is what it is.
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Helmetcase
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I don't know what to tell you then, I guess you don't believe that change can be affected and that the status quo is the best we can hope for. I certainly haven't tried to lessen anything about SF. Of course I think it sucks. I think what happened in NO after the hurricane sucks. If you see the world in a on/off, zero/one, black/white, liberal/conservative, and therefore Dem necessarily = antigun and Repub necessarily = progun, then I feel sorry for you because that's a rather silly position--we all know the world comes in shades of gray. Not only is that factually incorrect and not a supportable position (since we all know there actually are antigun Repubs and progun Dems in reality), but it also ignores the fact that change often is best achieved when it starts from within. I'm one of the people working for change. You can work with me, and benefit everyone, or you can work against me. What's it gonna be?
...as soon as the majority of gun-right-opposers ceases to be overwhelmingly Democrats I will cease to think of the Democratic Party to be the chief threat to American-gun-rights..it can't get any simpler than that...but first they have to change from 2nd Amend. enemy to 2nd Amend. friend....that is the reality of things friend...
Helmetcase
New member
Have you even read my blog yet? I remark in the very first "about this site" that yes, the majority of the blame for the current state of the affairs is in their camp. I'm simply pointing out that we'll get where we're trying to go a lot faster if we recognize that consensus building is the way to go.
..I am not lumping you in with the 2nd enemies...but your Party leaders(leaders) are by far not speaking your point-of-view on this issue...I have a similar problem with my Party leaders on some other issues...the sad fact is how much the Democratic Party has drifted from it's course over the last several decades...the only thing that can save it form the pit of pits is to oust (purge) the puke that has overcome it's voice...
the fact that change often is best achieved when it starts from within. I'm one of the people working for change. You can work with me, and benefit everyone, or you can work against me. What's it gonna be?
I don't trust the democrats to ever do the right thing. You may think you can change the whole democrat party but it is you that is taking a "rather silly position".
Remember Kerry as he ran for election and stood before us waving a shotgun? Well at the same time he hurried back to the senate to make an anti gun vote. He was a liar and lied to get more votes.
The very foundation of freedom is built on the right to keep and bear arms as the security of the individual is the very basis to acheive mans full potential. Democrats ignore that with some idealism that a utopia can exist without guns. It's hog wash and history has shown man needs to defend himself from socialist and fascist alike.
Again the Democrats have proven they can't be trusted with SanFransico. That is a fact. You see me as a one subject voter-against gun control, but the fact is the democrats by taking away security ruins everything freedom stands for.
If they want trust to be re-elected then prove it, throw the anti gunners out of the party and do it with a great deal of noise.
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I don't trust the democrats to ever do the right thing. You may think you can change the whole democrat party but it is you that is taking a "rather silly position".
Remember Kerry as he ran for election and stood before us waving a shotgun? Well at the same time he hurried back to the senate to make an anti gun vote. He was a liar and lied to get more votes.
The very foundation of freedom is built on the right to keep and bear arms as the security of the individual is the very basis to acheive mans full potential. Democrats ignore that with some idealism that a utopia can exist without guns. It's hog wash and history has shown man needs to defend himself from socialist and fascist alike.
Again the Democrats have proven they can't be trusted with SanFransico. That is a fact. You see me as a one subject voter-against gun control, but the fact is the democrats by taking away security ruins everything freedom stands for.
If they want trust to be re-elected then prove it, throw the anti gunners out of the party and do it with a great deal of noise.
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..I am not interested in Party bashing....some of the things Republican's do enrage me to no end...gun rights is only one issue...Republicans think of Democrats as enviromentalists(I don't like that word but prefer conservationist)..yet they forget that T. Roosevelt was the prime mover to set up our Nat. Parks and Forests...(would they call him an enviromentalist today?)...I distrust free-trade(long-term it will cause our decline)..yet Republicans often champion this...Bush's record on border-control is a disgrace..despite his recent speeches..I don't trust him at all on this issue...McCain is from my state...and I want him neither for my Senator let alone my President..each man (woman) has to stand on his own merit and not a party-label...it's good practice to never put any man on a pedistal as sooner or later they will disapoint you...
Helmetcase
New member
Nope, but we can either put our heads in the sand, or start eating the elephant one bite at a time. You know which option I choose.
FWIW, I'm an independent so it's not MY party per se, but I agree with you. My gut is that after the sixties and the Great Society, they had won most of the battles they'd ever thought they'd have to fight (Civil Rights, the social safety net) and they didn't know where to go from there. For so long they were the party on top of the mountain that they didn't know how to behave as the party of the opposition, so they're needing to relearn a few things.
I highly doubt the whole party can be changed, and the rather silly position would be suggesting I ever said that. The reality is we don't have to change the whole party, just enough that gun control votes aren't numerically enough to do damage. The antigunners are depressed, here in MD the director of the worst group just stepped down and has not been replaced. We have them on the ropes. The biggest favor people like you can do for them is act in a divisive manner. We're on the same team, you, me and everyone else should act like it.
If I personally knew any liberals who did like guns, I probably would have a better opinion of the group in general. Just about all I know believe in some utopian vision of the future that strongly professes non-violence, thus guns are not welcome. Good luck to you cause, Helmetcase, and welcome to the forums.
Helmetcase
New member
Hey, now you know one. There are plenty of us, just gotta have more liberal friends 
.
.In my on case I don't listen to what people say I watch what people do. My friends and countrymen are fighting a war against terror and the head of the democrat party wants to run up a white flag saying America can't win.
The democrats come up with this phoney BS that Bush lied while every Democrat that said Bush lied had said the same lies (if they were lies) before Bush was even elected. This stabs in the back our troops just for political gain.
Democrats say they don't want our guns and then bring forth a vote in San Fran to take guns away. LIES
Now you say am I with you or against you as a democrat, hell I don't even believe you because you are from a party that steals our guns.
Some of the others here are not so hard headed as I and I am sure they will welcome what you are trying to sell even if I am not buying. I would like to say welcome but it isn't my house and I have no control over who they invite
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The democrats come up with this phoney BS that Bush lied while every Democrat that said Bush lied had said the same lies (if they were lies) before Bush was even elected. This stabs in the back our troops just for political gain.
Democrats say they don't want our guns and then bring forth a vote in San Fran to take guns away. LIES
Now you say am I with you or against you as a democrat, hell I don't even believe you because you are from a party that steals our guns.
Some of the others here are not so hard headed as I and I am sure they will welcome what you are trying to sell even if I am not buying. I would like to say welcome but it isn't my house and I have no control over who they invite
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Many liberals are not anti-gun. That's a fact (I know plenty myself).
I think the 2 axis model for the political landscape is valid, but I always looked at it as social vs. economic. The social axis is divided into libertarian vs. authoritarian and the economic axis is divided into state control vs. free market.
Looking at it this way, you end up seeing that Hitler, Stalin, and Hussein are very close to identical and Dubya is in their direction but not at their extreme.
The republicans are in the upper right corner and the Dems are in the lower left.
If you want to see where you are, Click here and select "take the test" on the left sidebar.
I think the 2 axis model for the political landscape is valid, but I always looked at it as social vs. economic. The social axis is divided into libertarian vs. authoritarian and the economic axis is divided into state control vs. free market.
Looking at it this way, you end up seeing that Hitler, Stalin, and Hussein are very close to identical and Dubya is in their direction but not at their extreme.
The republicans are in the upper right corner and the Dems are in the lower left.
If you want to see where you are, Click here and select "take the test" on the left sidebar.
Helmetcase
New member
Firstly, as I stated I'm a registered independent who's "infiltrating" the Dems to change them from within.
Secondly, I'm not sure what you're suggesting, that I spent a bunch of my hard earned dollars and time building a pro-2A website but that I'm secretly an anti-gunner? 
I'll assume that you posted that late at night and your brain was tired or something.
Helmutcase
I'm repulsed at the idea of joining the Liberals in order to effect a change from within... Sounds too much like...
"If you can't lick'em, join'em and then lick'em."
That's the Liberal way.
Liberals are far from Progressives...
Teddy Roosevelt was a Progressive... Franklin Roosevelt was a Socialist...
Some may say Franklin D. and his Socialist methods brought us out of the Great Depression... Wrong!
The end of the Great Dust Bowl Drought and the beginning of WWII are the main reasons the Depression ended... and FDR and all the "king's" liberals can't claim any credit for that...
Liberals believe in the Robin Hood principle... "Rob the rich and give to the poor." As long as it doesn't take anything from their coffers.
They are fond of pointing at Republicans and saying, "Fat Cats" but they are the fattest cats of all...
Kennedy's preach liberal, but they are very powerful and very very rich... and Teddy K. is about as fat as any of them.
Jane Fonda doesn't even claim to be an American... she is a communist... as long as she can be a rich and powerful capitalist.
That's the Liberal way.
John Kerry and Ms. Heinz are incredibly wealthy and powerful... and they pay less than $100,000 in taxes. Their Heinz company has gone almost entirely OFFSHORE and they employ imported Mexican labor on their farms and in their factories here at home.
Diane Feinstein is very invovled in anti-gun legislation... and Feinstein carries a gun.
Liberals are hypocrites in the extreme.
Jackson, Sharpton, Ms. Rodham, "Slick Willy" and many other examples... have been caught in blatant lies. They are so completely without scruples that they work their foulness right "In your face"!
The only thing "progressive" about Liberals, is that they get progressively worse...
I'm repulsed at the idea of joining the Liberals in order to effect a change from within... Sounds too much like...
"If you can't lick'em, join'em and then lick'em."
That's the Liberal way.
Liberals are far from Progressives...
Teddy Roosevelt was a Progressive... Franklin Roosevelt was a Socialist...
Some may say Franklin D. and his Socialist methods brought us out of the Great Depression... Wrong!
The end of the Great Dust Bowl Drought and the beginning of WWII are the main reasons the Depression ended... and FDR and all the "king's" liberals can't claim any credit for that...
Liberals believe in the Robin Hood principle... "Rob the rich and give to the poor." As long as it doesn't take anything from their coffers.
They are fond of pointing at Republicans and saying, "Fat Cats" but they are the fattest cats of all...
Kennedy's preach liberal, but they are very powerful and very very rich... and Teddy K. is about as fat as any of them.
Jane Fonda doesn't even claim to be an American... she is a communist... as long as she can be a rich and powerful capitalist.
That's the Liberal way.
John Kerry and Ms. Heinz are incredibly wealthy and powerful... and they pay less than $100,000 in taxes. Their Heinz company has gone almost entirely OFFSHORE and they employ imported Mexican labor on their farms and in their factories here at home.
Diane Feinstein is very invovled in anti-gun legislation... and Feinstein carries a gun.
Liberals are hypocrites in the extreme.
Jackson, Sharpton, Ms. Rodham, "Slick Willy" and many other examples... have been caught in blatant lies. They are so completely without scruples that they work their foulness right "In your face"!
The only thing "progressive" about Liberals, is that they get progressively worse...
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