Non-Minuteman charged with holding 7 Mexicans at gunpoint

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Look Wally I don't like the fact that the neo-servative,anti-socialism, elitist, Limbaugh ditto heads like you can't get it through your thick heads that it is easy to TALK DOWN TO SOMEONE WHEN YOU DON'T LISTEN to what they have to say. I listenbed to you rant and all you have had to say is that we are socialists, we LIKE IMIGRANTS to take our jobs and now you have said "SO you choose A then, huh, thereby putting your wife and daughter in the hands of CRIMINALS who are in this country ILLEGALLY?" which I take to mean that you are saying that I would LIKE TO HAVE A CRIMINAL HURT MY FAMILY.

Wally I am out of this because I KNOW now that you are just trying to egg us on. Your ignorance of what we have said and how you are trying to say we have said something that no NORMAL person could have misinterpreted has led me to believe that you don't even belive yourself. You are just having fun instigating.

You talked about my family directly and you didn't even have the decency to leave room for paraphrasing it intlo something nuetral. MODERATOR if I haven't already been banned then could you please close this thread so that I don't let myself get banned? I'm out
 
The victim not only isn't a citizen, but isn't in the country legally. Isn't the prosecution of the agressor in this instance slightly problematic? Do illegals even have standing to be party to a criminal complaint? Why should resources be used to punish a citizen for something when the victim may not even have legal standing to be a party to a criminal complaint? If the country were not being invaded, no crime would have been committed.

The situation seems to me less like apprehending a non-violent criminal and more like confronting an intruder in the middle of a hot burglary. If Illegals don't want to be held at gunpoint, they should stay on their side of the border. I realize much of Mexico is a hellhole, but so what? Is there a solution short of having the U.S. annex it all? Allowing illegals to hasten the demise of our poorly-engineered social entitlement programs by discouraging U.S. citizens from doing anything about the illegal immigration problem is not a solution.
 
Tyme,

A crime is a crime against persons, in almost every instance, and not against citizenship. The party in a criminal complaint is the State, not the victim. If illegal aliens couldn't be brought before criminal courts, how would you try an illegal alien for a crime?
 
The victim not only isn't a citizen, but isn't in the country legally. Isn't the prosecution of the agressor in this instance slightly problematic? Do illegals even have standing to be party to a criminal complaint?
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The prosecution isn't problematic at all on the basis of non-citizenship. I'm not aware of any state criminal statutes that specifically limit their application to US citizens. Most, if not all, speak of threats to a "person" not a "US citizen". Maybe you'd like to show me a state law that does specifically reference US citizenship? And a criminal complaint is not brought by any person so standing to sue is not an issue. Criminal actions are brought by the government on behalf of the people - the victim is merely a witness.


Shootinstudent - ok, now you beat me to the punch. (damn these slow-typing Fred Flintstone fingers of mine!)
 
The victim not only isn't a citizen, but isn't in the country legally. Isn't the prosecution of the agressor in this instance slightly problematic? Do illegals even have standing to be party to a criminal complaint? Why should resources be used to punish a citizen for something when the victim may not even have legal standing to be a party to a criminal complaint? If the country were not being invaded, no crime would have been committed.
Click to expand...
Tyme,
Although I agree with what you said in the second half mostly, Please bear with me while I use an extreme situation to debate my opinion and don't think I am continuing a flame that I started with walleye.
If the immigrant did not have any rights then would it be o.k. to torture him during the arrest. After all the person doing the torture wouldn't have any problems with the courts because his victim(prisoner) would not have a right to bring charges against a citizen. You must consider what the consequences are when we treat foreigners. Whether they are there illegaly or not in another country, then the same argument could be used to torture(threaten with death and kidnap) our citizens in another country by it's citizens legally. We must follow a standard not just for our expatriots but for our societal standards as well.

Also, isn't he supposed to protect the country, when ordered to? If he decides what his military duties are when HE chooses then I think (assume) that the brass would think that it could lead to a lack of discipline or a mutin y. He is supposed to follow the local law whether he agrees with it or not. I do respect him for trying though and I even admire him a little but he did something the wrong way (IMHO).

Man both you guys (Shooting Student and Shaggy) beat me again!!!! I must be an even slower typist
 
Take it down a notch fellows. I enjoy debate and exercise of 1st Amendment rights. I don't enjoy a shouting match. Civilty equates to respect. I respect others differing opinions. I don't agree with their opinions but, I respect the poster. I feel that Sgt. Haab reacted in haste. I do fail to see ANY crime he is guilty of though. He detained a superior number at the point of a gun. So what? The physical odds were against him. The use of a weapon equalized the situation and created a superiority in custody and control for Sgt. Haab. Perfectly reasonable in a arrest. The illegals have no standing as US citizens. I feel that a illegal cannot be granted US constitutional protections. Illegal actions are all of our responsibilty. Rape? I would intervene with a weapon. Shoplifting at Wal-Mart? WM Loss Prevention has it until, I witness violence. The charge changes to robbery at that point and I would assist in apprehension by physical force. If the robber produces a weapon, deadly force. A gas drive-off without paying? None of my business. UNLESS, the gas thief endangers my life. I would most likely NOT fire due to the gas proximity. The point? WHEN do we act to prevent a crime? WHAT crimes would we respond to? WHY should any citizen ignore their responsibilty to their fellow citizens? WHO would you protect or not protect? WHERE do we as citizens draw the line and say enough, no more? HOW can we pull together and assist our government? The fact is, we have more than one idea and belief or value at play here. I think those who live on the border are fed up with government non-action. I think that a person who has not sat in the cold in San Diego or Columbus or Nogales and witnessed the coyotes moving illegals into the US can't quite visualize the invasion. Those who keep saying the US needs illegals for labour are not recognizing the dangers. I firmly support legal immigration. I respect those who wish to be US citizens, speak, read and write english and then sponsor others who want to do the same. Anyone, everyone is welcome to US citizenship. I note that many are ignorant of the fact that US citizenship swearing in ceremonies are held for the purpose of swearing in members of our own US armed forces. Think about that.
 
LOL,

Shaggy, I'm glad I got it mostly right this time at least! Slow typing is a little bit of insurance against error :).


Sir William,

I agree, I don't want for any of my posts to be taken as a personal attack either. I respect your opinion very much, and I'm happy to be able to discuss these things with you and others on this forum.
 
Cool! shootin student, I am a little appreciative even of your skill at staying aware of all that is posted. I have to take notes myself. You are articulate and willing to listen, I like that. Novus collectus is a poster I respect simply because he doesn't accept anything at face value. I appreciate debate with well armed opponents. LOL Wallew has experiences that I don't. I sincerely offer my belated condolences on the death of your friend. We all share a passionate love of our country and constitution. THAT is what is important.
 
Sir William I agree too your post before last. And as for your last post I am glad you didn't leave the "t" out of "poster" :) .
And thanks for reminding me that others read my yelling as well and that I should repect the spectators and future posters of a thread. :o

And also agree with the passionate love for our country and constitution. :) :) :)
 
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