shootinstudent
New member
Redhawk41,
Finally, we see eye to eye!
Finally, we see eye to eye!
Non-Minuteman charged with holding 7 Mexicans at gunpoint
- Thread starter TheeBadOne
- Start date
- Status
Not to get overly legalistic, but since we are talking about lawbreakers (illegal immigrants) its very important Haab wasn't also breaking the law. If thats not important to you, then your argument really falls to pieces - ie. its ok to break the law to stop lawbreakers. Its disingenuous and makes a mockery of the rule of law for which you so stridently argue.
Can you point to a federal statute that provides a citizen the authority to make a citizens arrest for federal crimes (illegal immigration)? Cite to the US Code please.
If there's no authority in federal law that provides a citizen with such authority then Haab pulled a gun and threatened someone with deadly force without legal authority. As such he would have broken the law also. Not that it excuses the illegal act of the immigrants, but two wrongs don't make a right - both Haab and the illegals can be wrong and guilty of crimes.
As it is now, there is at least probable cause to believe Haab committed a crime and he will get his day in court to prove otherwise.
novus collectus
Moderator
Shaggy,
You made a good point that I never thought of. But playing devils advocate here, there may be a state law similar to the federal law. Pretty sure that state never passed one dealing with arresting illegal immigrants though.
shootinstudent
New member
novus,
Responsibility for regulating aliens is entirely federal. It's in the constitution.
Responsibility for regulating aliens is entirely federal. It's in the constitution.
novus collectus
Moderator
o.k.. Sounds possible and I take your word for it.
SIS,
Not brag, JUST FACTS.
SO that MEANS that everything you say (as it can't be verified) is A LIE, RIGHT?
My BIL is a retired customs pilot who has not only flown the Texas/Mexican border in a Cessna Jet jammed full of electronic and other surveillance gear, but has flown drug missions in SA as well as was ONE of the 'loaned pilots' who flew choppers over the WACO debacle. He can tell you tales that will curl your hair about ILLEGAL MEXICANS and what they are willing to do to enter our country ILLEGALLY.
The guy who KILLED MY FRIEND IN KILLEEN WAS WHITE. THE GUY WHO ATTACKED MY WIFE WAS WHITE.
And I always keep a few rounds in reserve. My best man, as you know, is black. BUT my best friend in the whole world, a former roommate, the man who taught me inner peace through yoga, was also black. I was the LAST FRIEND he saw before he continued walking home in HOUSTONS 5th WARD. He was shot once in the chest with a .22 caliber pistol. He died where he fell, as the shot severed his AORTA. His name was PATRICK THOMAS and he was KILLED on August 24th, 1979, may he rest in peace. And HERE is the PROOF you so ignorantly say I DON'T HAVE. Note the In Memoriam on the right side of the BECHTEL monthly newsletter. YOU DO KNOW the type of company Bechtel is, right? Multinational... We worked for Bechtel Power. After Patrick was killed, I left Houston, never to return except on one trip to help my parents LEAVE HOUSTON.
MY best man. In the first picture his back is to the camera. On the right hand side of the photo is the back of my wife, my mom and then you see my DAD, with his arm around Bill Cosby (my mom took a GREAT PICTURE of my Dad and Mr. Cosby). The second photo is shot when I visited James down in LA while he was taking care of security business he was in... I think that's the Embassy Suites in the background and my white Suburban on the left. The third photo you can see James sticking his head up over his wife's head in the back at MY WEDDDING. Over my left shoulder is my BIL the RETIRED customs pilot. He always reminded me of Tom Selleck, on many different levels. My younger sister is on the far right. Next to her is my nephew, who is half white, half Brazilian. He's a sharp cookie, as he speaks five different languages while I stumble along with English.
SO before you blather on about all your EXPERIENCE that you say you have, I HAVE PROOF of mine. How about you? Where's your proof. You've traveled widely, so you are BOUND to have the Passport you used, right? How about posting a few pages that were stamped from other countries.
And as far as shooting mexican immigrants on site, I NEVER SAID THAT. The CARTOON said that. Too bad you don't understand politcal satire, especially LIBERAL POLITCAL SATIRE, as that was where that particular picture came from. A mexican based motorcycle magazine was COMPLAINING about the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS that were and ARE ruining it for all LEGAL IMMIGRANTS IN THIS COUNTRY. Which I personally agree with.
If an immigrant wants to come to OUR COUNTRY LEGALLY, BIENVIENDOS. Otherwise, they start out their 'new life' in this country as a law breaker and remain that way until they become LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. They spend all of their time with one eye out for INS. BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALLY AND ARE BREAKING OUR LAWS.
What part of that DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND. Apparently all of it.
That's WHERE YOU ARE WRONG. THE DIFFERENCE between those killed on 9/11 and ILLEGAL ALIENS IS MAJOR. To get the money they want, these ILLEGAL ALIENS started out by breaking the LAWS OF OUR COUNTRY, which they continue to do until they become legal. You just can't admit or grasp that concept. AND THAT'S WHY YOU ARE WRONG!
What the Sgt did was brandish a weapon. Not USE DEADLY FORCE. DEADLY FORCE IS WHAT WAS DONE TO MY BEST FRIEND PATRICK. And if you can't differentiate between brandishing a weapon AND USING A WEAPON then what you've LEARNED SO FAR IS JUST PLAIN WRONG!
AGAIN, you ARE WRONG. EVEN the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT says LOTS of these people coming across ILLEGALLY ARE CRIMINALS AND ARE TERRORISTS. Just because they don't wear a towel on their head doesn't mean their illegal entrance into OUR COUNTRY is a GOOD THING. ARE YOU SAYING that MS-13 and other LATINO gangs that are FLOODING OUR CITIES IS A GOOD THING? If so, YOU ARE SICK!
Actually YES YOU CAN and it's done all the time - read the NRA's America's 1st Freedom magazine - under "ARMED CITIZEN" where US citizens legally defend themselves AND OTHERS against criminals at work. And YES THE POLICE DO draw weapons without provocation.
Hey, Nimitz87, keep out of an ARGUMENT that you neither understand or are part of, as it started several threads ago. This self professed student has NO CLUE what it's like to be on the WRONG END of several ILLEGAL ALIENS who will do ANYTHING TO AVOID being caught, prosecuted and RETURNED to their HOME COUNTRY. I do.
I ALSO have the experience of going down to 'THE VALLEY' in Tejas to help MIGRANT WORKERS, you know, the ones who take the jobs that WE don't want to pick fruit, whatever. BUT these people then RETURN HOME TO MEXICO with their pockets full of US DOLLARS. Then they come back the NEXT YEAR and do it all over again. I've met some families that have been working for the SAME farms for THREE GENERATIONS. UNLIKE their illegal breathern, who go out of their way NOT to return to their home land but DO send LARGE AMOUNTS OF US DOLLARS home to their families (assuming they are not gang member OR otherwise PROFESSIONAL CRIMINALS, who just KEEP the US DOLLARS they MAKE).
Redhawk41,
During the AMERICAN REVOLUTION, less than five percent FOUGHT the war, with less than TEN PERCENT (which includes those that fought the war) of the AMERICAN PUBLIC supporting the fight. So, according to YOUR THEORY, we should all STILL BE SPEAKING THE KINGS ENGLISH. Wrong again, BOYO.
Golgo13,
How about purchasing a small piece of land of the Texas border, as they are going cheap. Previous owners have been RUN OFF their land. Perhaps it's time to TAKE BACK this country, on small piece of land at a time. Buy that small ranchette on the border and then with a few friends, sit up, armed to the teeth and RESOLVE THE ISSUE OF ANYONE ILLEGALLY CROSSING YOUR PROPERTY. Pretty soon, your piece of land will be avoided like the PLAGUE. Then sell that and buy another piece. Again, one piece at a time. Does THAT answer your question of WHAT WE SHOULD DO ABOUT IT CLEARLY ENOUGH?
Shootinstudent will probably be offended by my suggestion of PROTECTING ONE'S PROPERTY AGAINST ILLEGAL TRESSPASSERS, won't you SIS?
Not brag, JUST FACTS.
SO that MEANS that everything you say (as it can't be verified) is A LIE, RIGHT?
My BIL is a retired customs pilot who has not only flown the Texas/Mexican border in a Cessna Jet jammed full of electronic and other surveillance gear, but has flown drug missions in SA as well as was ONE of the 'loaned pilots' who flew choppers over the WACO debacle. He can tell you tales that will curl your hair about ILLEGAL MEXICANS and what they are willing to do to enter our country ILLEGALLY.
The guy who KILLED MY FRIEND IN KILLEEN WAS WHITE. THE GUY WHO ATTACKED MY WIFE WAS WHITE.
And I always keep a few rounds in reserve. My best man, as you know, is black. BUT my best friend in the whole world, a former roommate, the man who taught me inner peace through yoga, was also black. I was the LAST FRIEND he saw before he continued walking home in HOUSTONS 5th WARD. He was shot once in the chest with a .22 caliber pistol. He died where he fell, as the shot severed his AORTA. His name was PATRICK THOMAS and he was KILLED on August 24th, 1979, may he rest in peace. And HERE is the PROOF you so ignorantly say I DON'T HAVE. Note the In Memoriam on the right side of the BECHTEL monthly newsletter. YOU DO KNOW the type of company Bechtel is, right? Multinational... We worked for Bechtel Power. After Patrick was killed, I left Houston, never to return except on one trip to help my parents LEAVE HOUSTON.
MY best man. In the first picture his back is to the camera. On the right hand side of the photo is the back of my wife, my mom and then you see my DAD, with his arm around Bill Cosby (my mom took a GREAT PICTURE of my Dad and Mr. Cosby). The second photo is shot when I visited James down in LA while he was taking care of security business he was in... I think that's the Embassy Suites in the background and my white Suburban on the left. The third photo you can see James sticking his head up over his wife's head in the back at MY WEDDDING. Over my left shoulder is my BIL the RETIRED customs pilot. He always reminded me of Tom Selleck, on many different levels. My younger sister is on the far right. Next to her is my nephew, who is half white, half Brazilian. He's a sharp cookie, as he speaks five different languages while I stumble along with English.
SO before you blather on about all your EXPERIENCE that you say you have, I HAVE PROOF of mine. How about you? Where's your proof. You've traveled widely, so you are BOUND to have the Passport you used, right? How about posting a few pages that were stamped from other countries.
And as far as shooting mexican immigrants on site, I NEVER SAID THAT. The CARTOON said that. Too bad you don't understand politcal satire, especially LIBERAL POLITCAL SATIRE, as that was where that particular picture came from. A mexican based motorcycle magazine was COMPLAINING about the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS that were and ARE ruining it for all LEGAL IMMIGRANTS IN THIS COUNTRY. Which I personally agree with.
If an immigrant wants to come to OUR COUNTRY LEGALLY, BIENVIENDOS. Otherwise, they start out their 'new life' in this country as a law breaker and remain that way until they become LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. They spend all of their time with one eye out for INS. BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALLY AND ARE BREAKING OUR LAWS.
What part of that DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND. Apparently all of it.
That's WHERE YOU ARE WRONG. THE DIFFERENCE between those killed on 9/11 and ILLEGAL ALIENS IS MAJOR. To get the money they want, these ILLEGAL ALIENS started out by breaking the LAWS OF OUR COUNTRY, which they continue to do until they become legal. You just can't admit or grasp that concept. AND THAT'S WHY YOU ARE WRONG!
What the Sgt did was brandish a weapon. Not USE DEADLY FORCE. DEADLY FORCE IS WHAT WAS DONE TO MY BEST FRIEND PATRICK. And if you can't differentiate between brandishing a weapon AND USING A WEAPON then what you've LEARNED SO FAR IS JUST PLAIN WRONG!
AGAIN, you ARE WRONG. EVEN the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT says LOTS of these people coming across ILLEGALLY ARE CRIMINALS AND ARE TERRORISTS. Just because they don't wear a towel on their head doesn't mean their illegal entrance into OUR COUNTRY is a GOOD THING. ARE YOU SAYING that MS-13 and other LATINO gangs that are FLOODING OUR CITIES IS A GOOD THING? If so, YOU ARE SICK!
Actually YES YOU CAN and it's done all the time - read the NRA's America's 1st Freedom magazine - under "ARMED CITIZEN" where US citizens legally defend themselves AND OTHERS against criminals at work. And YES THE POLICE DO draw weapons without provocation.
YEAH? WHERE? You show me IN THE CONSTITUTION where it says THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR BORDER CONTROL? That is SPECIFICALLY left to states to enforce IN THE CONSTITUTION.
Hey, Nimitz87, keep out of an ARGUMENT that you neither understand or are part of, as it started several threads ago. This self professed student has NO CLUE what it's like to be on the WRONG END of several ILLEGAL ALIENS who will do ANYTHING TO AVOID being caught, prosecuted and RETURNED to their HOME COUNTRY. I do.
I ALSO have the experience of going down to 'THE VALLEY' in Tejas to help MIGRANT WORKERS, you know, the ones who take the jobs that WE don't want to pick fruit, whatever. BUT these people then RETURN HOME TO MEXICO with their pockets full of US DOLLARS. Then they come back the NEXT YEAR and do it all over again. I've met some families that have been working for the SAME farms for THREE GENERATIONS. UNLIKE their illegal breathern, who go out of their way NOT to return to their home land but DO send LARGE AMOUNTS OF US DOLLARS home to their families (assuming they are not gang member OR otherwise PROFESSIONAL CRIMINALS, who just KEEP the US DOLLARS they MAKE).
Redhawk41,
During the AMERICAN REVOLUTION, less than five percent FOUGHT the war, with less than TEN PERCENT (which includes those that fought the war) of the AMERICAN PUBLIC supporting the fight. So, according to YOUR THEORY, we should all STILL BE SPEAKING THE KINGS ENGLISH. Wrong again, BOYO.
Golgo13,
How about purchasing a small piece of land of the Texas border, as they are going cheap. Previous owners have been RUN OFF their land. Perhaps it's time to TAKE BACK this country, on small piece of land at a time. Buy that small ranchette on the border and then with a few friends, sit up, armed to the teeth and RESOLVE THE ISSUE OF ANYONE ILLEGALLY CROSSING YOUR PROPERTY. Pretty soon, your piece of land will be avoided like the PLAGUE. Then sell that and buy another piece. Again, one piece at a time. Does THAT answer your question of WHAT WE SHOULD DO ABOUT IT CLEARLY ENOUGH?
Shootinstudent will probably be offended by my suggestion of PROTECTING ONE'S PROPERTY AGAINST ILLEGAL TRESSPASSERS, won't you SIS?
Attachments
Art. I Section 8: Congress shall have the power...
Para. 4: To establish a uniform rule of naturalization
Para. 15: To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions (since many here have called it an "invasion")
Now can you cite me a section of the US Code that provides for a citizen to make a citizens arrest based on a federal law and detain someone?
How did Haab know they weren't legal or didn't have gren cards before he pulled a weapon on them? At least LEO or agent of the government has to have probable cause. It appears Haab had neither.
How would YOU react if someone (not a LEO) just thought YOU committed a crime and pulled a weapon on YOU? Regardless of whether you did or didn't - they thought they saw you do something and next thing you've got a gun in your face. For example Sam Shopkeeper thinks he saw you steal something while you were at the Kwickie Mart. As you're leaving he pulls a weapon on you and your wife and says "move and you die" and hold you until the police arrive to straighten things out. Hows that float with you?
shootinstudent
New member
Wallew,
Your post is so varied and rushed, I'm not sure what to say. All I get from it is:
1. You have black friends
2. You have seen some illegal immigrants
3. Illegal immigrants are different from terrorists (which is what I said.)
4. Pointing a gun at someone isn't deadly force.
5. Criminals immigrate illegally. (MS13 was born in Los Angeles, btw...not somewhere else. Technically, that gang left the US to infect other countries.)
6. The Constitution leaves immigration to the states. (See Article I, section 8. "Uniform rule of Natrualization...")
7. Not only is pulling your gun to prevent any crime not deadly force, it's also not illegal. (Does this mean I can draw my weapon if I see some kids running from Denny's without paying the bill?)
8. You want to see a picture of my passport.
Let me know if I missed anything. My responses are in Parentheses.
Your post is so varied and rushed, I'm not sure what to say. All I get from it is:
1. You have black friends
2. You have seen some illegal immigrants
3. Illegal immigrants are different from terrorists (which is what I said.)
4. Pointing a gun at someone isn't deadly force.
5. Criminals immigrate illegally. (MS13 was born in Los Angeles, btw...not somewhere else. Technically, that gang left the US to infect other countries.)
6. The Constitution leaves immigration to the states. (See Article I, section 8. "Uniform rule of Natrualization...")
7. Not only is pulling your gun to prevent any crime not deadly force, it's also not illegal. (Does this mean I can draw my weapon if I see some kids running from Denny's without paying the bill?)
8. You want to see a picture of my passport.
Let me know if I missed anything. My responses are in Parentheses.
shootinstudent
New member
Shaggy,
thanks, I posted while you were posting apparently.
thanks, I posted while you were posting apparently.
novus collectus
Moderator
I didn't finish reading your last post because I got tired of your tone.
What is the rules for gun safety?????
Do you ever point the gun at anything you don't intend to destry????
WHY is that????? Is it because of the inherent danger of an accidental discharge. Purposely pointing a gun at someone that is loaded or unloaded is intent to use force with deadly means.
If you say that it is only deadly force if he shot them then what would YOU say if someone shot at you and didn't miss or just pointed a gun at you and threatened your life?? treat others as you expect them to treat you.
What the immigrants are doing is bad for the country, almost all of us agree with that. But except for the .0001% that are terrorists or can become terrorists, they are just doing a crime that is tantamount to felony (over $300) shoplifting. I take it that since shoplifting is hurting this country too (adding to our consumer costs) you would SHOOT or point a loaded gun at someone you THOUGHT was shoplifting?????
By your flame you're asking for flame and I feel dirty stoop to this level. This was a decent thread until the out of control B.S.. This is one I hope gets closed.
novus collectus
Moderator
Shaggy,
I wasn't stealing your example either. I was just writing mine before I saw yours.
I wasn't stealing your example either. I was just writing mine before I saw yours.
shootinstudent & novus...
Not a problem - I think its an appropriate analogy. Pointing a weapon at someone, without authority or justification is a crime. I may be wrong, but until someone shows me something in the US Code that gives a citizen authority to make a citizens arrest for a federal crime, I'll have to think Haab didn't have legal authority. Additionally, from what I read, I don't think he had justification either. Did he the suspect pull or produce a weapon? Did he have a reasonable fear of immanent harm or death?
And FWIW, although brandishing a weapon isn't necessarily using deadly force, it is nevertheless a crime in most states as aggravated assault.
Not a problem - I think its an appropriate analogy. Pointing a weapon at someone, without authority or justification is a crime. I may be wrong, but until someone shows me something in the US Code that gives a citizen authority to make a citizens arrest for a federal crime, I'll have to think Haab didn't have legal authority. Additionally, from what I read, I don't think he had justification either. Did he the suspect pull or produce a weapon? Did he have a reasonable fear of immanent harm or death?
And FWIW, although brandishing a weapon isn't necessarily using deadly force, it is nevertheless a crime in most states as aggravated assault.
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shootinstudent
New member
Thanks for the info shaggy.
Sounds like a pretty clear case of aggravated assault w/ a deadly weapon amongst some other possible charges. What he did wasn't legal in AZ. And from all reports that I've seen of it, he had no proof of any crime at all, much less the type of crime that makes it legal or appropriate for the action of pulling a gun or detaining someone.
SIS, MP, NC,
So, the fact that this country has gone down hill BECAUSE of illegal immigration means NOTHING TO YOU.
The fact that I've had friends killed means I HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT VIOLENCE VISITED ON ANOTHER IS.
YOU THINK THAT BREAKING THE LAWS IN THIS COUNTRY IS OK BY YOU.
Finally, I was listening to John Gibson this afternoon. He was talking about how the IRANIAN MULLAHS have said "The US and EUROPEANS should just get used to Iran having nuclear weapons"
DO YOU HAVE A CLUE WHAT HE SAID?
THAT THE IRANIAN MULLAHS SHOULD GET USED TO GLOWING IN THE DARK.
If the Mexicans continue INVADING OUR COUNTRY, expect to see BLOOD IN THE STREETS EVENTUALLY.
And if you ACTUALLY THINK MS13 CAME FROM THE US, then I feel sorry for you, because you are showing YOUR IGNORANCE. YES, even the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AGREES THAT MS13 COMES FROM CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA, where they rule with violence. JUST LIKE THE DRUG LORDS...
Past that, I notice that you failed to answer ALL THE QUESTIONS I ASKED about how you think that being invaded by ILLEGAL ALIENS IS A GOOD THING. Sad really.
And of course, as YOU SAID, nothing you say can be proved, so IT'S ALL LIES. ALL OF IT!
NC,
Apparently YOU DON'T HAVE ANY PROBLEMS JUMPING DOWN INTO THE GUTTER WITH SIS.
Not me, I'm NOT THE SECURITY GUARD for a BUSINESS. The security of THIS COUNTRY IS EVERYONE'S BUSINESS.
The fact that you and your cohorts and all the other liberals I've ever spoken to ACTUALLY THINK THAT THE POLICE ARE THE ONLY ONES ALLOWED TO ENFORCE THE LAWS OF THE US ARE INCORRECT. As a US CITIZEN it is NOT ONLY MY RIGHT, but my RESPONSIBLITY to intercede, armed if I feel the necessity, to stopping crime in it's tracks.
The old story goes like this.
I am walking along minding MY OWN BUSINESS. I come upon a group of criminals intent on RAPING AND MURDERING YOUR WIFE AND DAUGHTER. I am armed to the teeth.
I should:
A) Keep walking, because hey, I'm NOT ALLOWED to intervene in a crime as it occurs
B) Keep walking, but take out my cell phone and call the police and HOPE that they show up BEFORE YOUR WIFE AND DAUGHTER HAVE BEEN RAPED AND KILLED
C) Walk right up to the FIRST GUY who's taking his pants off and drop him like a hot rock with a shot to the forehead. Thereby scattering the rest of his crew. Then I help your wife and daughter to pull the shreds of their clothing back on while I THEN take them to the emergency room for medical assitance.
I CHOOSE C. EVERY SINGLE TIME.
How about YOU?
Oh, and ALL THE CRIMINALS WHO ARE ABOUT TO RAPE AND KILL YOUR WIFE AND DAUGHTER ARE ALL MEXICANS WHO ARE IN THIS COUNTRY ILLEGALLY.
So, the fact that this country has gone down hill BECAUSE of illegal immigration means NOTHING TO YOU.
The fact that I've had friends killed means I HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT VIOLENCE VISITED ON ANOTHER IS.
YOU THINK THAT BREAKING THE LAWS IN THIS COUNTRY IS OK BY YOU.
Finally, I was listening to John Gibson this afternoon. He was talking about how the IRANIAN MULLAHS have said "The US and EUROPEANS should just get used to Iran having nuclear weapons"
DO YOU HAVE A CLUE WHAT HE SAID?
THAT THE IRANIAN MULLAHS SHOULD GET USED TO GLOWING IN THE DARK.
If the Mexicans continue INVADING OUR COUNTRY, expect to see BLOOD IN THE STREETS EVENTUALLY.
And if you ACTUALLY THINK MS13 CAME FROM THE US, then I feel sorry for you, because you are showing YOUR IGNORANCE. YES, even the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AGREES THAT MS13 COMES FROM CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA, where they rule with violence. JUST LIKE THE DRUG LORDS...
Past that, I notice that you failed to answer ALL THE QUESTIONS I ASKED about how you think that being invaded by ILLEGAL ALIENS IS A GOOD THING. Sad really.
And of course, as YOU SAID, nothing you say can be proved, so IT'S ALL LIES. ALL OF IT!
NC,
Apparently YOU DON'T HAVE ANY PROBLEMS JUMPING DOWN INTO THE GUTTER WITH SIS.
Not me, I'm NOT THE SECURITY GUARD for a BUSINESS. The security of THIS COUNTRY IS EVERYONE'S BUSINESS.
The fact that you and your cohorts and all the other liberals I've ever spoken to ACTUALLY THINK THAT THE POLICE ARE THE ONLY ONES ALLOWED TO ENFORCE THE LAWS OF THE US ARE INCORRECT. As a US CITIZEN it is NOT ONLY MY RIGHT, but my RESPONSIBLITY to intercede, armed if I feel the necessity, to stopping crime in it's tracks.
The old story goes like this.
I am walking along minding MY OWN BUSINESS. I come upon a group of criminals intent on RAPING AND MURDERING YOUR WIFE AND DAUGHTER. I am armed to the teeth.
I should:
A) Keep walking, because hey, I'm NOT ALLOWED to intervene in a crime as it occurs
B) Keep walking, but take out my cell phone and call the police and HOPE that they show up BEFORE YOUR WIFE AND DAUGHTER HAVE BEEN RAPED AND KILLED
C) Walk right up to the FIRST GUY who's taking his pants off and drop him like a hot rock with a shot to the forehead. Thereby scattering the rest of his crew. Then I help your wife and daughter to pull the shreds of their clothing back on while I THEN take them to the emergency room for medical assitance.
I CHOOSE C. EVERY SINGLE TIME.
How about YOU?
Oh, and ALL THE CRIMINALS WHO ARE ABOUT TO RAPE AND KILL YOUR WIFE AND DAUGHTER ARE ALL MEXICANS WHO ARE IN THIS COUNTRY ILLEGALLY.
novus collectus
Moderator
READ OUR FRICKIN POSTS. WE ALLLLL SAID THAT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS BAD FOR THIS COUNTRY. ALLL OFFF UUUSSSS.
NO ONE HAS """"EVER"""""" SAID IN THIS THREAD THAT IHAVE SEEN HAS SAID THAT IMMIRATION IS GOOD IN ANYWAY FOR THIS COUNTRY. IF YOU THINK THAT ISAID THIS THEN YOU ARE BLIND.
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT AS FAR AS SOCIETY IS CONCERNED.
Jeez how many times in how many different ways do we have to say this before you stop with the attacks on us? I hate this because you are making me do personal attacks too.
The new reports on ms13 you saw propable said that the current influx has come from central America. It is quite possible that he is right and that it was started by illegals already here when they conspired and organised.
And what moral right do you have top call us liers? You have a moral right to say that you don't believe us but once you cross the lineand call us a lyer then you're the one who loses credibility.
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Well. I am not going to defend Sgt. Haab. I am interested to hear his version, though. I would like more info.
Something that came to mind is the fact that if he were in, or ever was in the military, he took an oath to protect the country from enemies, both foriegn and domestic. If someone were to believe in his own heart and mind that the country is being threatened, and our own government is at best inactive and at worst, compliant...does that person not only have the right, but also the obligation to act?
Personally, I consider the mass illegal migration of unknown persons into our country to be a real threat to our economic stability and national security. Yet I am optimistic in light of the political turn-about that appears to be occurring, activities such as the MMP and the number of Americans who seem to be waking up to the long-term implications of the crisis. While I was in Arizona, I never considered doing what Haab did, because I still feel that our country shows a glimmer of a chance of waking up and securing the border.
Some of the locals that I talked to expressed a deep and long-growing rage that seemed very out of step with their character. They were upset that so many fellow Americans think that this is a new issue; they spoke about the years of watching their land trampled, places broke into, animals killed, ect. Calls made to the Border Control that were either never acted upon, or hours too late. Yes, I met a couple of possible "crazies", but most of the ones I talked with were rational, law abiding citizens. In a different situation, talk of "taking the law into their own hands" and comments like "It is coming. There will be a war down here before long"...would have been totally unnatural to their speech. Whether one believes their situation is a dire one, or not...the fact is that many of them feel at their wits end.
It all comes down to what level of gravity one puts upon the situation.
We are always going to have our "crazies." But when ordinary people, who have a history of rational, non-violent thought patterns, start entertaining thoughts of more proactive measures...whether it is forcibly holding criminals and contacting the proper authorities, or worse...it demonstrates a potential breakdown in the social/legal integrity of our nation.
It doesn't matter whether we feel Haab's actions were just. He felt strongly enough about it that he was willing to risk possible injury (had the illegals been armed and resisted) and certain incarceration by the police. He considered his options and landed somewhere between "ah...it'll all work out" and "shooting women and children indiscriminately". Maybe he is a crazy. I don't know. I haven't learned enough about him. Maybe he is simply an overzealous patriot. Maybe he is simply a sign of the times to come. Each person on this forum can decide for him or herself what catagory to stick him in.
My (long-winded) question to myself and to you is: at what point would each of us act? At what point would we consider taking the law into our own hands? Just how bad would things have to be? Where would each of us draw the fine line between "vigilante" anti-social behavior and "necessary resolve"? Crazies and patriots have had to wrestle with this question since the beginning of time.
Something that came to mind is the fact that if he were in, or ever was in the military, he took an oath to protect the country from enemies, both foriegn and domestic. If someone were to believe in his own heart and mind that the country is being threatened, and our own government is at best inactive and at worst, compliant...does that person not only have the right, but also the obligation to act?
Personally, I consider the mass illegal migration of unknown persons into our country to be a real threat to our economic stability and national security. Yet I am optimistic in light of the political turn-about that appears to be occurring, activities such as the MMP and the number of Americans who seem to be waking up to the long-term implications of the crisis. While I was in Arizona, I never considered doing what Haab did, because I still feel that our country shows a glimmer of a chance of waking up and securing the border.
Some of the locals that I talked to expressed a deep and long-growing rage that seemed very out of step with their character. They were upset that so many fellow Americans think that this is a new issue; they spoke about the years of watching their land trampled, places broke into, animals killed, ect. Calls made to the Border Control that were either never acted upon, or hours too late. Yes, I met a couple of possible "crazies", but most of the ones I talked with were rational, law abiding citizens. In a different situation, talk of "taking the law into their own hands" and comments like "It is coming. There will be a war down here before long"...would have been totally unnatural to their speech. Whether one believes their situation is a dire one, or not...the fact is that many of them feel at their wits end.
It all comes down to what level of gravity one puts upon the situation.
We are always going to have our "crazies." But when ordinary people, who have a history of rational, non-violent thought patterns, start entertaining thoughts of more proactive measures...whether it is forcibly holding criminals and contacting the proper authorities, or worse...it demonstrates a potential breakdown in the social/legal integrity of our nation.
It doesn't matter whether we feel Haab's actions were just. He felt strongly enough about it that he was willing to risk possible injury (had the illegals been armed and resisted) and certain incarceration by the police. He considered his options and landed somewhere between "ah...it'll all work out" and "shooting women and children indiscriminately". Maybe he is a crazy. I don't know. I haven't learned enough about him. Maybe he is simply an overzealous patriot. Maybe he is simply a sign of the times to come. Each person on this forum can decide for him or herself what catagory to stick him in.
My (long-winded) question to myself and to you is: at what point would each of us act? At what point would we consider taking the law into our own hands? Just how bad would things have to be? Where would each of us draw the fine line between "vigilante" anti-social behavior and "necessary resolve"? Crazies and patriots have had to wrestle with this question since the beginning of time.
Wallew -
Its not a mutually exclusive choice. because one is wrong and violates the law does not mean the other is automatically right and didn't violate the law.
And thats the heart of the matter here - the rule of law.
Illegal immigrants are, by definition, entering illegally and committing an illegal act. However, if you value the rule of law you must not turn your head and ignore the rule of law when its inconvenient to you. What Haab did was very likely a felony (aggrevated assault). There is obviously sufficient probable cause to believe he committed a crime for him to be facing charges. Or are you that much of a hypocrite as to imply the rule of law only applies against illegal aliens and not US citizens? IOW we need to protect our laws and ways against these illegal law breakers by breaking the law ourselves and further ignoring the rule of law? What stunning irony...and hypocrisy.
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