No CCW in restaurants - thoughts

[Dingoboyx]

IMO

The trouble with banning carry in any certain place (resteraunt, church, school (adults/teachers, not students) means that any criminal with 2 brain cells, knows that someone leaving a resteraunt, school, government building etc, walking back to his car, stops at the auto teller (cash machine) before getting back to his car, is fair game for a mugging.... he has just been to a resteraunt so he hasn't got a gun on him, he hasnt been to his car to get his gun yet, he's just been to a cash machine.... so lets rob him now??

To me, telling law abiding citizens (who are legally allowed to carry) where and when they can not carry, just advertises to criminals as to when the law abiding citizen is not (probably not) carrying! and is most vulnerable to attack

I reckon the places that ban you from carrying, should have a safe/gun room With good security, gun & owner identification) or something, like the 'old days' at the saloon.... when you arrive, you check in your gun.... when you leave, you get it again.... like for coats at night clubs... that way, the licenced carrier, is not exposed to mugging etc, on leaving the resteraunt? That would be far more acceptable to me than having to leave it in you car?!

Stoopid laws.... stoopid! :barf:

 

[Re4mer]

Also, just curious, why do you go to bars to not drink?
You're just preventing one more person who does drink from sitting at the bar....and hurting the bar tenders tips.

A lot of people go to bars and do not drink. That doesn't mean you cant tip, besides given the amount of alcoholism in our culture its nice to see people in a bar just to have a good time without getting drunk.

 

[ZeSpectre]

I bet if there is a law to say you cant carry in a restaurant, like you guys are saying, if a criminal came in and started threatening the diners with a gun & a good guy (being naughty, carrying in the restaurant) shot the BG about to kill god knows how many innocent diners, the GG would be a HERO .... then get arrested

In that scenario the good-guy prays that someone out there will understand the concept of jury nullification.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Specter, I’m a retired sailor I’ve been in more bars then I should admit to; alcohol and guns do not mix, period. Just like cars and alcohol the two should never meet.

NickW,

I suspect that your concern is intoxication and intoxicated behavior but you write with the same broad brush and "zero tolerance" mentality that the lawmakers are using as well and it's just no good.

If one were to take your statement literally then...
-Alcohol should never be transported in an automobile
-Alcohol should never be present in any house where there are firearms
I could go on and on.

You see there are already laws about firearm possession and intoxication so that part of the equation is already covered.

The blanket laws that force a non-drinker like me to either leave my sidearm behind in the questionable security of an automobile, or switch to open carry, if my group of friends suddenly says "hey, while we're out let's go to that nice restaurant" are punishing/restricting the innocent for doing nothing just because "somebody might possibly do something irresponsible".

If we're going to switch to and accept "SMPDSI" lawmaking I have some rather extensive car ownership laws I'd like to see passed <evil grin>.

 

[Chuckusaret]

I wrote to Panera Bread and here is what they said, "As part of offering free wi-fi in our bakery-cafes nationwide, it is important that we maintain the community tone and standards that Panera Bread is known for."

Another business for our retired social group to avoid on our daily lunch/dinner trips. Our group has met at the Panera Bread in Palm beach Gardens Florida, but will not do so in the future. We boycott all establishments that have "No Gun" signs, that are anti-gun and/or support anti gun groups/organizations in anyway.

Ranger Lodge of the Fraternal Order of Police

My group will no longer make donations to the FOP because of their stand to not allow guns to be carried in national parks. Ref: http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/dec/31/national-park-gun-carrying-rule-prompts-suit/

 

[SigfanTN]

Here in Tennessee the both branches of government just passed a bill allowing us to carry in restaurants,even where alcohol is being served.It was passed in both parts by so many votes that even if our Democratic Gov. were to veto it they say it would pass and overide him easliy on a second vote.This Bill
also allows carry in State Parks in Tennessee.

Chris, the State Park issue is a different bill. You can find the restaurant carry bill here:
http://wapp.capitol.tn.gov/apps/BillInfo/Default.aspx?BillNumber=SB1127

Perhaps because the papers are in such an uproar about both might be why the lines seem to be blurred between the two. We are still not out of the woods on the park carry bill, it seems.

I agree that alcohol and guns do not mix, just the same as consuming alcohol and operating automobiles does not mix. I am so sick of reading all of the Letters to the Editor saying what a ludicrous idea this is and accusing TN lawmakers of taking payouts from the NRA. Again to many folks want to legislate responsibility. They don't understand that if you drink and drive, you are at least as dangerous, and if you screw up you have to face the consequences of breaking the law. Somehow a preponderance of evidence from neighboring states that allow restaurant carry without ill effects is lost on these people. Just see the first letter in this Sunday's edition of The Commercial Appeal. The writer states that he is a HCP holder, yet his letter sounds like all of the others I've been reading these last couple of months. I'll be writing my own letter to the CA now.

[Edited to add]
You might want to check with Panera Bread directly about their stance on guns if it's important to you. I'm betting the restriction in their firewall is a default setting. It probably has a broad list of general subject matter that it restricts. If corporate or local mgmt. tells you they are opposed, then you can be absolutely sure where they stand.

 

[txbirddog]

Also, just curious, why do you go to bars to not drink?
You're just preventing one more person who does drink from sitting at the bar....and hurting the bar tenders tips.

So you make your DD sit or hang out somewhere else while not enjoying your company? You must be a really good dinner companion!! What if I enjoy a Diet Coke, would that be ok for letting a "drinker" at the bar.

 

[Mark Milton]

I don't drink so I don't have to worry about bars.

(I'm diabetic, I can't drink unless I want to go into a hospital for a coma)


As for restaurants, if they don't have a metal detector, I don't care what their policy is. They dont' know.
I am not one of those Chairborn Rangers who gets off by flashing his peice.

I have been carrying concealed since the early 1980s (when it was a misdemeanor with a $100 fine in Kentucky) and I have never been spotted, even when I was carrying a six inch .44 magnum in a room full of cops.

These days I carry even smaller guns (Bond .45 derringer, five shot .38 or Taurus .380) and pocket carry and IWB rigs tend to make the guns impossible to spot even by folks who are savvy to me. In fact, sometimes when I am not carrying people that know me think I am.
I was one of the first 10 people to get my CCW permit in my state too, so I don't have to carry a $100 bill anymore to pay a fine. Which is good becuase when they passed House Bill 40, they made carrying without a permit a felony.

My advice to you is look into IWB rigs and tuckable holsters and avoid belt rigs and don't flash your peice. It doesn't make you look like James Bond it just makes you look like a scary goof off to the McSheeple.

 

[moga]

To those that say guns and booze don't mix as opposition to restaurant carry.

Being in an establishment that pours booze while armed isn't drinking and carrying. Should carriers be prohibited from entering grocery stores that have beer and wine too? Are we suddenly to be overcome by a uncontrollable need to binge drink before going Columbine in the place? It sounds silly, doesn't it? Yet I don't see how it is any different than giving dire warnings about how guns and booze don't mix as a counter point to restaurant carry. In addition to Bradies and the VPC people, the restaurant industry lobby and the fraternal order of police chiefs are the ones that rant and rave about this the most. But the fact is that the concern doesn't have any basis in reality. In addition, most people that have carry licenses are first and foremost concerned with their safety. The last thing they want is to be impaired in public if someone is jeopardizing their life. Collectively we tend to take such matters pretty seriously.

There have been no issues at all since Georgia law was changed to allow GFL holders to carry at restaurants that serve alcohol -- without drinking, of course. I can't tell you how many times in the last month that I've exercised that right without issue -- much less since last July. If I want to imbibe, then I do it after I get home. As does the majority of responsible people that are eligible for a carry license in their respective state. It is the result of years of sound judgment that permits us to apply to carry guns in the first place.

 

[Rocked]

You might want to check with Panera Bread directly about their stance on guns if it's important to you. I'm betting the restriction in their firewall is a default setting. It probably has a broad list of general subject matter that it restricts. If corporate or local mgmt. tells you they are opposed, then you can be absolutely sure where they stand.

What he said, try looking up some other taboo subject and see what gets blocked, they might just be covering their own ass.

 

[blume357]

What I've done while going to a restaurant in VA...

is realized after I've sat down that I forgot to 'un-conceal' my handgun... then I just lift my shirt and show it... I guess to anyone who might be under the table.... when I leave it doesn't matter, because I'm leaving.

 

[2DaMtns]

I think I am going to write to my representatives and ask that they ban cars in bars, cause I don't think it's safe to let people drive a car to a place that sells alcohol, whether they drink or not. If you have a bar with 100 people in it, how many of them do you think will drive home after drinking? Hopefully none, maybe 10, I don't know. Now, how many of them are going to be CWP holders, and are going to get hammered and then go out and shoot up the town like it's the Wild West? Puhlease.

 

[SigfanTN]

I finally wrote a letter and it was published today here. Scroll down to the headline "Firearms make us all safer" (the paper added the heading). If you care to read the others, the majority of which are the sky is falling type of stuff, be my guest.

Here is my original draft for your convenience:

The Editors of this paper would like you to believe that your safety is in jeopardy thanks to bills opening up the places where a licensed individual may carry their firearms. I have to question their integrity, though, because they've attempted to shape the debate by keeping some of the facts to themselves. For instance, Tennessee would not be charting new territory by allowing firearms into places that serve alcohol. There are enough other states which already allow it, and have allowed it for some time, where the curious person on either side of the issue can readily discover that there exists no public safety issue. If this were the hazard that the CA and many of it's letter-writers would lead you to believe, then why haven't you heard about it already? That many readers may not have known the fact that other neighboring states allow what is being so hotly debated in this publication and others in Tennessee should be proof enough that it is not an issue worth raising hackles about.

The simple fact is that we are responsible for our own safety and security. The police, as deeply as I appreciate their dedication and duty, are unfortunately more likely to arrive after a criminal has assaulted, maimed or killed someone than they are to be in the right place at the right time to protect you. You assume that someone responsible enough to go through the steps to acquire a HCP and take on the awesome responsibility of carrying a firearm will automatically lose all direction when faced with a wine list? The implication is beyond insulting ,and frankly, is indicative of the sorry mindset of people who will not take responsibility for themselves while trying to limit the freedoms of others to do so. Kudos to you CA for not sacrificing your ideals without regard to journalistic integrity. I'm sure your dwindling readership appreciates it.

Here's the one I wrote to Governor Bredesen:

Governor Bredesen,

As a citizen of Memphis, TN, I urge you to sign HB962 into law.

Every person is responsible for their own safety and security. Memphis is
one of the most dangerous cities in the US, and this legislation means my
wife and I could go to some of our favorite restaurants without feeling
unprotected in the event of an attack between our car and the restaurant
door.

Other states have either enacted similar legislation or already allow their
permitted citizens these freedoms, and there have not been the ill effects
in those states that are being predicted in our papers.

This is not about proliferation of guns. This is about citizens having the
right to protect their family and themselves where they have a right to be
which should include a restaurant that happens to serve alcohol.

 

[inSight-NEO]

I can also see how they might be worried that someone could get drunk and belligerent and get shot by someone who is carrying.

I think you just hit the nail square on the head here. Alcohol and guns dont mix, regardless of how tolerant you think you are. Sure, not everyone entering a bar/restaurant drinks, but those running the establishment probably arent willing to take the time for surveys on "who drinks/who carries" and "who does not drink/who carries." Any dumb, angry and armed fool could enter one of these establishments, start drinking and easily become a threat to others.

Im not saying I necessarily agree with such policies and would most certainly prefer the right to remain armed given the circumstances. However, I wouldnt let it ruin my day either and would certainly try identifying with the reasons behind such a decision. Now, if such said establishment DID NOT SERVE ALCOHOL, then I would most certainly question such weapons restrictions.

 

[Frizzman]

I know plenty of people who carry their handguns concealed in restaurants regularly in spite of the stupid laws. I was a LEO and know there are plenty of guns, knives and etc. on people in bars. The continuation of the ban in this state is due to am opportunist Governor who just blows whatever way his party wants and a lack of legislators in the General Assembly willing to vote to override his veto. Yes, Kaine will be gone soon thankfully, but there is a whole bunch of similar types lining up to replace him who will be just as bad or worse. Considering the way the voting in this state has been going, I don't have much hope for any change in this.

 

[inSight-NEO]

I know plenty of people who carry their handguns concealed in restaurants regularly in spite of the stupid laws. I was a LEO and know there are plenty of guns, knives and etc. on people in bars.

I believe you and this is basically the essence of why various weapons bans/regulations do not work. But, that is a much broader topic.

However, I can see the impetus regarding concerns which may or may not involve guns and establishments which allow the purchase and consumption of alcohol. Im not saying a "complete gun ban" should the default choice; at the same time, I can see how such a decision would be tough to make. Now, if such a decision were made for me (via government or whatnot), I may not like it. But, I may accept it...Im just not sure.

Of course, there will always be those who try to bend/break the rules. This is to be expected.

Keep in mind, Im all for CC just about anywhere one can walk and/or drive. But, whenever I go out for a "night on the town," which sometimes involves drinking, I leave the gun at home. Period. After all, if I were to use a weapon (and justified in doing so), yet were intoxicated to any degree, it just may give an attorney all the leverage he/she needs to make my life a living hell. Not worth it, IMHO.

 

[SigfanTN]

Any dumb, angry and armed fool could enter one of these establishments, start drinking and easily become a threat to others.

If I'm remembering correctly, I believe it is something like 38 states that allow carry in restaurants serving alcohol. Of course, what you say could happen in any state, law or no law. I don't imagine a law allowing persons with a HCP, CCP, CCW to carry in these places changes things much for the likelihood of that scenario.

A person walking to and from the restaurant is more likely to be the victim of a violent encounter, though. So, laws banning permit holders from carrying in these places means either they don't get to have dinner there, or they go unprotected.

Why should a group of people, who think they have a right to feel safe, usurp the rights of a group of people, who only want to exercise their right to protect themselves if necessary, when the scenario they fear is statistically less likely to happen?

[EDIT]

I just saw your edit. Here, I agree with you. I am not drinking, nor do I plan to while carrying in public. I would like to go to a nice restaurant with my wife, though, and not have to leave the gun in the car. The only place where, I think, being intoxicated and shooting someone in self-defense would not be a huge liability is if you were at home, and the aggressor definitely had the means to take you out of the picture.

 

[inSight-NEO]

The interesting thing about such topics is that, in the end, its like a debate on politics or religion. Both sides make good and bad points, yet, in the end, you believe what you believe.

I believe in the right to own guns. I believe in the right to CC wherever and whenever you choose. But, I at least try to understand where the opposition is coming from. This, to me, helps in understanding and defending my rights that much more effectively. So, if I seem to be a proponent of "restaurant bans," I am not. But, I am certainly willing to consider the thoughts behind such concerns.

 

[ZeSpectre]

The interesting thing about such topics is that, in the end, its like a debate on politics or religion. Both sides make good and bad points, yet, in the end, you believe what you believe.

Really the interesting thing is that there is 25-30 or more years of evidence, across multiple states, and yet some folks refuse to accept the evidence that CCW holders are NOT the problem and won't become one.

Belief has very little to do with it.

 

[ritepath]

I just travel the extra 4 minutes to WV so I can CC and Eat at the same time.