New Cartridge 357 Ring Of Fire

Mr. Elliot,
Could you please use a Hipoint for your test gun if you choose to continue your efforts. As a direct blowback hipoints need a very heavy slide. This results in a lot more metal around the barrel than most designs. There are documented cases of hipoints firing double and triple charges without the shooter being injured. Barrel failures contained by the slide also.
 
Excellent post, Dave! Please post more often and keep us informed of your ground-breaking progress.

This is a GREAT thread. If I could get it off the computer screen and sell it as fertilizer I would be richer than Bill Gates!
 
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Mr. Williamson,
I have been researching the Hi Point pistols. I am interested in knowing if the 9mm frames are the same size as the 45acp.
Are the magazines the same external dimensions?
One other concern I have, I have not seen a 10mm Hi Point. I want a strong frame for this cartridge.
Are there recoil springs available in 23+ pound rating?
The Coonan uses 24 lb. recoil springs...and their frame is substantial.
I have watched videos on the Hi Points. They seem to be finicky about magazines like 1911's were in the 70's.
I appreciate constructive criticisms and suggestions, and take all of them seriously. Thank you!
 
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Hi guys,
I have some info you may enjoy...
I am using .77 of 357 magnum as maximum loads with these cartridges.
I found this charge to nearly fill the case when the bullet is seated, with slower powders.
H110 and W296 cannot fit .77 of a charge without compressing. There was no additional increase in velocity from .73 of a charge in this short barrel either. I will start fresh with these powders when I get the longer barrel...maybe this will show a difference.
The amazing Blue Dot powder seems to be the most efficient, with great function and velocities. Has anyone found an equal to Blue Dot, being so scarce?
A good starting load is .70 of the 357 magnum maximum charge...but CFE PISTOL did not generate enough power to cycle the slide at .77. Velocities were still very low at .83. I stopped testing with this powder concerned the pressure curve may spike to unsafe levels.
I have tested with small rifle primers. There was an increase in velocities and pressures...but it was suggested to continue with softer small pistol primers as a margin of safety...until I gain access to a pressure barrel to see where these really are for the cartridges I am modifying.
I have been a little too light on some of the crimps also. The Copper Plated bullets seem to slip a little out...sometimes jamming the magazine.
I have been using a Lee E-7 taper crimp die, and a Hornady crimp die to see which is better suited. I don't want to over crimp either.
Has anyone found a similar issue with plated lead bullets? Any solutions?
Thanks guys!
Dave
 
I have been researching the Hi Point pistols. I am interested in knowing if the 9mm frames are the same size as the 45acp.Are the magazines the same external dimensions?
Click to expand...
I do not think they are.
One other concern I have, I have not seen a 10mm Hi Point. I want a strong frame for this cartridge.
Click to expand...
10mm is not that common of a round and is quite expensive. hipoints are for the masses.
Are there recoil springs available in 23+ pound rating?
Click to expand...
A gunsmith can make you one pretty cheaply or with some research you could make one. Springs are simple.
I have watched videos on the Hi Points. They seem to be finicky about magazines like 1911's were in the 70's.
Click to expand...
I had mine out a few weeks ago and was having some malfunctions o begin. I then remembered it is necessary to ?pack? the magazines after loading to make sure the cartridges are all the way back. No problems once this was done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbvvurXmAmg
Four videos in that series. Take considerably more abuse than most firearms on the market could.
 
I've thought of a similar idea, basically take a .357 Mag case, minus the rim and cut the brass to where you can maintain a 1.260" OAL with 125-158gr bullets, brass would probably be similar in length to 10mm brass, maybe a little shorter but not much. You would get 9mm capacity and, at least with the 125gr and the right powder, I'm sure you could get decent velocities. However to mimic the .357 mag with the heavies probably isn't possible, my Blackhawk is running 158gr XTP's to 1500 fps.

I've pushed a some cartridges pretty far, running 180's @ 1400 and 200's @ 1300 from a 6" Glock .40 and I push .45 Super fast enough to equal the 460 Rowland, but could you post your velocities from the .357 ROF including barrel length? I'm curious but could easily see the pressures being very high, but maybe not terrible if you're only going for mid range .357 ballistics.
 
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I have refrained from full disclosure until I can verify legalities.
However I have breached 1350 fps with 158 grainers with a 3.77" barrel.
170 grain bullets have breached 1150+ fps.
I am unable to continue testing until after hunting season. Next year, I will resume tests with a new 5.7" barrel from BarSto. The new barrel will have a compensater cut into it and the bore may be opened to a full 357.
I intend to also test with 200 grain lead bullets but no more than 1000 fps to reduce leading(maybe a bit too optimistic? ). This length of bullet may not be feasible for my cartridge.
There is already brass close to what is needed, without ruining wonderful revolver brass...very labor intensive.
Understand, I will not release too much information, until I am satisfied the information is safe. I don't want someone going off half-baked, and coming home full-baked due to wrong data...there has already been a bit of misunderstanding by miscreant experts...
 
I have refrained from full disclosure until I can verify legalities.
Click to expand...

You need to patent your design and product to insure you can name it and benefit from all your work.

Good luck.
Jim
 
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Patents must be surrendered before SAAMI will test. Patents now cost over 10k plus lawyers fees. I don't have 10k plus to throw away. Does anyone?
SAAMI will not test from an individual. I need a manufacturer to sponsor.
This is where I stand until legalities can be navigated by the lawyers to release the details.
This has nothing in common with existing cartridges, other than 357 bullets in 158, 170 grain.
Not 9mm, not 355 or 356 diameters. Not bored out casings...just real 357 performance for semi autos with a rimless cartridge so doublestack high capacity magazines can be used in common large frames.
Not special frames like the Coonan or Desert Eagle require and are still limited by single stack magazines.
Thanks guys
Dave
 
I wish I could create new cartridges!

I had thought up what seems like a similar concept some time ago, I guess just from boredom.

The concept I came up with is a straight walled, rimless cartridge that has a case OAL pretty much the same as the 10mm (~.980-.990"). The cartridge OAL is between 1.260-1.270", uses small pistol primers (SPM or SR primers if they proved better) and a pressure rating of 45-50K PSI, which is high but not as high as 9x23. Case support in the chamber would have to be complete.

The bullet range is from 110gr-158gr with hopes to mimic typical factory .357 magnum ballistics and give 17/18rd capacity in full size guns. Granted it would never take off (nothing ever really takes off unless LE agencies adopt it) but I like the idea of using actual .357 Magnum bullets down a .357" bore, not jamming .357" bullets down a .355" barrel like the 38 Super or 9x23.

Velocity range (~4.5"BBL):
125gr JHP: 1500-1550 fps
140gr JHP: 1375-1425 fps
158gr JHP: 1250-1300 fps

The name .357 Ruger is just because I couldn't think of anything more clever :) This is an image I pieced together to show it, not the best but it gives an idea.

LODyYfU.jpg
 
"SAAMI will not test from an individual. I need a manufacturer to sponsor."
Well, it likely won't happen, then, I'm afraid. It also sounds like there will be no scientific (repeatable/verifiable) information forthcoming in this thread. What we (posters as well as manufacturers) have are mere claims at this time, and it sounds like you want a non-disclosure agreement before going any further.

So what's the point of the thread? To tease us with claims?

TCB
 
RUGER45LC, it sounds a lot like the old 9mm Mauser Export round, but with a .358" bore, not a .355". I've mused often about how fun it'd be to own a Mauser Broomhandle in 9mm Mauser. What you're describing sounds like it would be similar. Are you thinking of putting it a 1911A1 platform?
 
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Hey guys!
Ruger45 LC:
You are so very close with your cartridge!!! It is very nice! Thank you for sharing it.
By the way, I like your choices in calibers and guns
 
Ruger45LC - very nice photo of the different cartridges. Thanks for posting it. I think I'm going to use it as a reference. Once again, very nice photo, extremely clear and sharp.
 
Dave,

SAAMI does not do lab testing, they are just a publisher and coordinator.
If you want your ammo tested to SAAMI specs for pressure and velocity, contact H.P. White Laboratory. They have been in the business a long time.
http://www.hpwhite.com/ballistic-testing/ammunition/
I doubt they play games with your patent rights.

The greatest expense will be for a P/V barrel for them to test in. At least it will be a standard diameter, nothing special except your chamber.

A simple Google search found another ballistics test company, DT Brown.
http://www.dtbtest.com/ammunition-testing.aspx
Note the part about a FREE quote for testing services.

Hey, look, here's another.
https://chesapeaketesting.com/services/outdoor-blast-testing/

Didn't I already post a source for DIY pressure gear? $750 so you would know what you were sending the pro lab.
 
I have a few questions related to some comments you made earlier.
Davelliot said:
It's designed to minimize wasted space in a cartridge whose parent case was designed for black powder.
Click to expand...
You don't need to name the specific pistol cartridge you're referring to, but could you name any rimless pistol cartridge that was originally designed for black powder? I'm curious because I'm not aware of any.

Also, I'm curious to know what you mean by "wasted space". How is space "wasted" in a cartridge? I have been under the impression that maximum loads are maximum loads because of the pressure they generate, whether or not they completely fill the cartridge case with powder & bullet.
Davelliot said:
Just as Mr. Rowland has discovered an aspect of chamber and cartridge design which could stand to be improved...
Click to expand...
What aspect of chamber design was improved to allow the 960 Rowland's development from the 9x23?

How was the cartridge design of the 960 Rowland improved over the design of the parent cartridge, the 9x23?

If you feel that answering the two questions about the development of the 960 Rowland are too proprietary, perhaps you could just list the differences between the 9x23 chamber & cartridge design and the 960 Rowland chamber & cartridge design without getting into which ones are the improvements you're referring to.
 
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