Missed the boat.
- Thread starter GoSlash27
- Start date
Whatever makes you think I said anything about deterring terrorists. Didn't say that. Didn't imply it. You forget, you did imply this.GoSlash27 said:
My statements were meant to show you how deterrence works on the criminal mind, not the mind of fanatical extremists.
Remember, it was you who brought up the idea that we can just treat them like criminals (with all the baggage that comes with criminal law). I, on the other hand, rejected your ideas out of hand as being simplistic. Now you appear to be taking my argument and agreeing with it... So which is it GS?
You seem to be advocating for a certain method, and when challenged, you drop it and morph your ideas to something else, all the while forgetting you espoused a previous stance.
You now add to the equation, that we can win this by undermining this religious movements underlying popular support?! Just how are you going to undermine a religious belief? I want to hear this.
Clue: You ain't gonna do it by making them criminals.
Joliet Jake
Moderator
You base checkmate on a, british no less, opinion poll? ok ...... how about some realistic facts on these bumbling boobs on how they were REALLY going to inflict "unthinkable distruction"?
and lose the absolutes. I never said 911 or '93 weren't terror attacks. or Reid for that matter although he was quite the bumbler. "Couldn't light the fuse to his shoe bomb?" Too bad Maxwell Smart wasn't there. He could have lent him his Shoe Phone to call Osama for instructions on match striking.
Doesn't it take a blasting cap to light that stuff off anyway?No you suggested that because no terror attacks have happened since 9-11, especially with our open boarders, that those of us who say they could are "propagandists"
I added the british poll (I have others that are similar) to add to the mix muslims that are already here and the threat the extremists among them pose. Which according to my research averages 7 percent.
Thats around 100 million folks who hate us and want us dead. So I may have a better chance of hitting the lottery but by no means is stating the danger "propaganda".
I have rebutted your arguement with facts unless you have something new to add you have lost.
Joliet Jake
Moderator
Incorrect again. I said those that parrot government created hyperbole are fear propagandists. Get it straight. Now who, when, where, are the real terrorist attacks on US soil you are SO afraid of? Did you just suggest ALL Muslims? or 100 million Muslims? How about 4 billion screaming red Chinese? Does that scare you too?
That is the second time you have declared yourself the winner of an unwinnable debate. I'm glad you think so much of yourself.
Antipitas,
There is nothing that has changed in what I have said from the first post through this one. If it seems that way to you, perhaps I'm simply unable to explain it in a way where you grasp the concept that I'm outlining.
The terrorists are a small subset of the radical Muslims. The radical Muslims are a small subset of the Muslims. The ability of the tiny sub-subset that concerns us to wage their attacks is *directly* influenced by their popular support among the Muslim world. This is where they get their money and their recruits.
Are you still with me?
Everything they do, everything they say is designed to gain influence with the larger Muslim community. Our strategy is supposed to counter this, and thus render the terrorists irrelavant.
If you wage a campaign that is designed to influence the mainstream (read non-radical majority) Muslims to reject the terrorists, they will cease to be able to operate. This strategy has been effective against every terrorist organization that has ever been battled by a society from as far back as history goes. It works.
What we have been doing is the polar opposite of this, stumbling into every behavior guaranteed to win the terrorists the backing of the Muslim moderate majority. This "strategy" has failed every single time it has been employed.
It does not work.
All of it; the criminalization, the pullout from Iraq, the negotiations with legitemate and peaceful representatives, the strict adherence to our Constitution and international law is part of a greater plan to isolate and strangle the terrorists by aligning the majority against them.
So why do you insist on rejecting what history has taught you and think of me as the naive one? Why, because "9/11 changed everything"? Pardon my bluntness, but bu**s%it. 9/11 did exactly what it was designed to do; trick us into responding in a heavy-handed and clumsy manner instead of a rational and calculating one. It was just the opening move in the latest round.
Al Qaeda is just like all the organizations that have preceded it and it can be defeated in exactly the same way...so long as we use our heads.
There is nothing that has changed in what I have said from the first post through this one. If it seems that way to you, perhaps I'm simply unable to explain it in a way where you grasp the concept that I'm outlining.
The terrorists are a small subset of the radical Muslims. The radical Muslims are a small subset of the Muslims. The ability of the tiny sub-subset that concerns us to wage their attacks is *directly* influenced by their popular support among the Muslim world. This is where they get their money and their recruits.
Are you still with me?
Everything they do, everything they say is designed to gain influence with the larger Muslim community. Our strategy is supposed to counter this, and thus render the terrorists irrelavant.
If you wage a campaign that is designed to influence the mainstream (read non-radical majority) Muslims to reject the terrorists, they will cease to be able to operate. This strategy has been effective against every terrorist organization that has ever been battled by a society from as far back as history goes. It works.
What we have been doing is the polar opposite of this, stumbling into every behavior guaranteed to win the terrorists the backing of the Muslim moderate majority. This "strategy" has failed every single time it has been employed.
It does not work.
All of it; the criminalization, the pullout from Iraq, the negotiations with legitemate and peaceful representatives, the strict adherence to our Constitution and international law is part of a greater plan to isolate and strangle the terrorists by aligning the majority against them.
So why do you insist on rejecting what history has taught you and think of me as the naive one? Why, because "9/11 changed everything"? Pardon my bluntness, but bu**s%it. 9/11 did exactly what it was designed to do; trick us into responding in a heavy-handed and clumsy manner instead of a rational and calculating one. It was just the opening move in the latest round.
Al Qaeda is just like all the organizations that have preceded it and it can be defeated in exactly the same way...so long as we use our heads.
Joliet Jake
Moderator
No more like the much larger and violent IRA.
Negotiate with Osama, Hammas, and the rest of 'em? How can that be done?
U.S. "well, we would really like it if you would please stop blowing up civilians. Please? What's it gonna take?"
Terrorist: "simple, you zionist pig. First, we will attack Israel, and you must not respond. Second, you will make annual payments to the Islamic charities of our choice."
U.S. "well, we're willing to turn our back on Israel, but these payments you're talking about....."
Terrorist: "we get our cash, or you get a civilian bloodbath. Your choice"
U.S. "fine. To whom should the checks be made payable?"
Welcome to negotiating with terrorists.Fremmer, How about this.........U.S. Whats it going to take to get you to stop killing us?
Terrorist Just leave our lands.
U.S. Okay done
Terrorist to themselves Those dumb arses fell for it.
Terrorist three years later Get that nuke into position bye bye infidels.
U.S. Wow they said if we left their land that they wouldn't hurt us.
Joliet Jake (if his terror lotto ticket didn't get punched) Man I guess they were right.
Terrorist Just leave our lands.
U.S. Okay done
Terrorist to themselves Those dumb arses fell for it.
Terrorist three years later Get that nuke into position bye bye infidels.
U.S. Wow they said if we left their land that they wouldn't hurt us.
Joliet Jake (if his terror lotto ticket didn't get punched) Man I guess they were right.
JJ, People who think like you scare me worst than any terrorist or chinaman.
You do understand that simply understanding that a threat exists and needs to be addressed and prevented doesn't equal fearing the possiblilty....right? You keep popping out these sarcastic remarks simply because others understand a threat exists and you aren't capable of or not willing to understanding that this threat does exist.
The terrorist say they are going to attack us. Experts in the field say they are trying to. Common sense and the facts says you are wrong.
You do understand that simply understanding that a threat exists and needs to be addressed and prevented doesn't equal fearing the possiblilty....right? You keep popping out these sarcastic remarks simply because others understand a threat exists and you aren't capable of or not willing to understanding that this threat does exist.
The terrorist say they are going to attack us. Experts in the field say they are trying to. Common sense and the facts says you are wrong.
Joliet Jake
Moderator
I believe he meant with legitimate governments. Kinda like what Bush Sr did with the gulf war. Kinda like the world support we had following 911 before the bushbully doctrine kicked in.
Doesn't israel now talk to hamas? Probably not, but I really don't know since hamas has become the legitimate, elected government of the palistinian territories.
threegun, you really are scared, aren't you? You aren't just bs'n us. You are afraid of armegedon. Are you too young to remember the cold war? Because if you aren't you would realize the price of MAD. Oh yeah, terrists don't care if they die. That may be true, but they have to get the "nuke" somewhere, right? Would the leader of any country risk everybody of their country to help your "terrorists" deliver a bloody nose in exchange for total annihilation?
threegun, you need to get over your fear of the boogeyman and the unknown! We do the best we can with the spirit of Freedom, Liberty and Justice for all, not some shadow of what we stand for. If it happens, it happens, we deal with it like Americans! A Congressional declaration of war and total annihilation for YOUR hypothetical.
Joliet Jake
Moderator
There you go again spouting out absolutes like the strawmen they are. I never said it will never happen again and has never happened in the past. You keep building your strawman with that. Is that all you got?
Now I scare you tooo???
You are using the same mentality as the gun banners I really do think you don't care for. "We have to do something (ban the guns)/(kill the terrorists) before something another (VTech)/(armegedon) happens because if we don't we're all going to die. Read the next part careful because it applies to the previous sentence. If there's no reason other than the possible future thought we will make one up (semi-autos)/(Iraq terrorists) to fulfill destiny and prove we are right.
But on the backside of that is, if there is a "credible" reason like there was on the 19 illegal aliens that were allowed to stay in country and carry out 911 we should dog pile like the pack of wild dogs we are. When we allow these illegals to stay here we only lessen our security but nothings being done about that, is it? and now Bush is pushing hard to allow them to stay. What's going to become of the next 12 million "illegals" then? We'll just be right back in the same boat again.
Joliet Jake
Moderator
Where is that boat?
It is rising on the tide of cultural friction in the Muslim world. The majority-Muslim countries are mainly third-world, underdeveloped countries. In a generation or two, those societies have been subjected to incredible forces of change that the developed countries adjusted to (often painfully) over a period of centuries. The very social fabric in those countries is stretched to the limit and fraying.
When societies undergo extreme stress, the people turn to religion and religious fundamentalism thrives. We see that today in the Muslim world as change breeds discomfort and insecurity and many Muslims resort to their faith as an anchor in the storm.
GoSlash27, you advocate getting mainstream Muslims to reject the terrorists. But opportunists like bin Laden do not have to seek popular support - they only need to act as mirrors for the existing anger and fear in Muslim society to achieve widespread support.
It is rising on the tide of cultural friction in the Muslim world. The majority-Muslim countries are mainly third-world, underdeveloped countries. In a generation or two, those societies have been subjected to incredible forces of change that the developed countries adjusted to (often painfully) over a period of centuries. The very social fabric in those countries is stretched to the limit and fraying.
When societies undergo extreme stress, the people turn to religion and religious fundamentalism thrives. We see that today in the Muslim world as change breeds discomfort and insecurity and many Muslims resort to their faith as an anchor in the storm.
GoSlash27, you advocate getting mainstream Muslims to reject the terrorists. But opportunists like bin Laden do not have to seek popular support - they only need to act as mirrors for the existing anger and fear in Muslim society to achieve widespread support.