Missed the boat.

The middle east is quick sand and we're about up to our necks in it. That's why we're being attacked in iraq. The insurgents want us out and the few terrorists there want to stir the pot and al qaeda sits back in the easy chair in pakistan smoking their heroin from the largest producer in the world right next door in afganistan. That's right, they produce more heroin now than ever before.

Actually, there are several different factions involved in this conflict. While all are Fundamentalist Muslims, they differ in the same way that most other totalitarian regimes do. The Taliban ruled Afghanistan under Sharia, and plunged an already weak nation straight into the 13th century. Al-Queda used land provided by the Taliban to train terrorists, sometimes even using Taliban members as instructors. The Wahabi sect, from Saudi Arabia, also supports and arms Fundamentalist terrorists. These are only three of the multitude.

It seems odd, then, that entire districts and neighborhoods in Iraq are actively resisting these "few" terrorists today. They are tired of having to feed, equip, and house the "few", only to have their families and friends fall victim to them. It also seems odd to me that the "insurgents" you speak of are actively killing thousands of innocent Iraqis for every American killed. Something just doesn't make sense here.

As for the Heroin, I didn't think that the purpose of relieving the Taliban of control of Afghanistan had anything to do with heroin. The Taliban, for all of their dire predictions about growing heroin, found it to be somehow "pleasing to Allah". We haven't flouridated their water, either. Is that another reason to proclaim failure?

The individual American will understand as much of the Fundamentalist train of thought as they see fit. In WWII, nobody in the American People felt it necessary for the average American to study the psychological, or historical, precedents of the Japanese, the Nazis, or the Facists to be able to combat them. That's still true today. Unless and until you seek out the basic knowledge, allowing you to sort raw data from a position of competency, you are at the mercy of the sources. The average person will not access enough non-biased information to reach an actual understanding of the subject. Instead, he/she will read information published by agenda-driven authors, and arrive at mostly false conclusions, predicated upon his/her own experiences and opinions.

I believe that we can see that happening right here.
 
gc70,
The sensationalism of that trial was a by-product of the technique. Research Grover C. Hall. All of this was made possible because of their excesses in 1927, which allowed them to be wedged from their identity population as "violent and un-American".
The KKK example is a great springboard to hypothesize the effectiveness of certain techniques.

GoSlash27, it takes extreme faith to base a strategy for national defense on a "technique" that requires the other side to do something highly improbable and incredibly stupid.
 
Do you live in a prime terrorist target area? Do you deny that we have foiled several terror plots since 9-11?
The only ones I know of are the recent jfk plot, ft dix and the miami 6. I remember something about the golden gate bridge or a building in san fran but the details never really came out so I have to assume that was hyperboled too. JR might be right though I am far from an expert but I was born at night but it wasn't last night either.

It's my uneducted Missouri opinion that jfk was beertalk, ft dix was again beertalk and the miami 6 definitly beertalk. The police lie and entrap suspects all the time. It seems to be standard MO these days to coach and buy a confession with an "informant". The same guy (criminal) facing 20-life but only 5 if he can buy a confession from some stooges. When the judicial has come out in support of the government lying for the greater good or for any reason, for that matter, is when I no longer trust. Do you trust an admited, known, liar? Since we never got many of the details on the alleged Cal attack that was already 2 years old, I have no opinion but lean towards hyperbole. The anthrax attacks were military grade and linked to US sources but no suspect was ever apprehended and convicted so I have no opinion.

Since the attack, on US soil, prior to 911, was 8 years earlier I would suspect, especially since our foreign policy has become more imperalistic, that we are due. and before that, I don't remember any on US soil. That still doesn't discount the odds of any given US citizen becoming a victim to one. We could turn our country into a communist east germany and it could still happen, for instance, israel, so please don't go giving my Freedom, Liberty and my Right to go my way and live my life, in my happiness, without government interference, away because you're scared or for the greater good. The same reason gun banners use. and now we have a freakin War Czar?...muh.
 
It's my uneducted Missouri opinion that jfk was beertalk, ft dix was again beertalk and the miami 6 definitly beertalk. The police lie and entrap suspects all the time. It seems to be standard MO these days to coach and buy a confession with an "informant".

You just convinced me that you are a joke not a Jake. I no longer believe that you are serious. If you are and there are many others like you god help us all.

BTW you left out the Shoe bomber and the dirty bomb plot.
 
For you to say that every attempted terror attack or plot was merely beer talk to downplay evidence I put forth to prove you wrong solidifies my comments. You just want to rant so go ahead. I just see you for what you are now.
 
to downplay evidence I put forth to prove you wrong
ok, let's talk about the miami 7.

7 or was it six? homeless guys that didn't have a plug nickel to their names that lived in an abandoned warehouse in the slums of miami.

ok, your turn.
 
"Today we dodged a bullet. In fact, when you look at the type of weapons that this group was trying to purchase, we may have dodged a lot of bullets," said FBI agent J.P. Weis.

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"We had a group that was forming a platoon to take on an army. They identified their target, they did their reconnaissance. They had maps. And they were in the process of buying weapons. Luckily, we were able to stop that."

Authorities said there was no direct evidence connecting the men to any international terror organizations such as al-Qaida. But several of the men said they were ready to kill and die "in the name of Allah," according to court records.

Their goal was "to kill as many American soldiers as possible" in attacks with mortars, rocket-propelled grenades and guns, prosecutors said.

Infiltrated by informant
Investigators said they infiltrated the group with an informant well over a year ago and bided their time while they secretly recorded the defendants, five of whom lived in Cherry Hill, a Philadelphia suburb about 20 miles from Fort Dix.

Just a tid bit. Notice they recorded the defendents own words. Notice the goal.

Your turn. Beer talk I believe was the word you used........show us how.
 
A wiretap transcript given to CNN by the FBI indicates the alleged plotters targeted the airport because of the popularity its namesake, John F. Kennedy, who was assassinated in 1963.

"Anytime you hit Kennedy, it is the most hurtful thing to the United States. To hit John F. Kennedy, wow ... they love JFK -- he's like the man," former JFK airport cargo worker Russell Defreitas allegedly said in a telephone conversation monitored by the FBI.

"If you hit that, this whole country will be in mourning. It's like you can kill the man twice," Defreitas allegedly added.

At a Justice Department news conference Saturday afternoon, the plotters were described as "a determined group" whose signature was persistence. (Watch how authorities foiled the plot )

A law enforcement source told CNN Saturday evening that the idea for the plot allegedly came from Defreitas, who also apparently recruited the other men. Those three supposedly directed the effort.

Beer talk right.
 
Richard Colvin Reid (aka Abdul Raheem) (born August 12, 1973), also known as the shoe bomber, is an individual convicted on charges of terrorism and currently serving a life sentence in the United States for attempting to detonate a commercial aircraft in-flight using plastic explosives contained in his shoes.

Wow a conviction for mere beer talk. Like I said before dude you are just joking right?
 
Fort Dix.
opps, wrong "terror attack"


The miami 7 were going to allegedly "kill as many dogs as possible". Sound familiar? They allegedly took photographs of the miami federal building. The only problem was they didn't have a camera. The "informant" convienetly supplied one so they could remember their target with pictures. opps, one other problem, they didn't have a way to get there so the "informant" convienetly supplied them with a rental car. Now they were uptown, wheels, camera. But it gets even better.

Your turn.
 
and they allegedly said they wanted to blow up the sears tower too. But first they had to have uniforms and "combat boots" and machine guns and a "howitzer" from the "informant". I guess they were just going to tow their howitzer to chicago with their rental car and they needed new shoes.

In addition to conducting surveillance, the defendants allegedly provided the individual, whom they believed was an al Qaeda member, with a list of materials and equipment needed to wage jihad, including boots, uniforms, machine guns, radios and vehicles.

"There is no imminent threat to Miami or any other area because of these operations," said Richard Kolko, spokesman for FBI headquarters in Washington. He declined further comment.
Sound familiar?

Nobody has heard anything else about them after their arrest. They just just disappeared into the BushCo/Gonzolas "enemy combatant" black hole.

You guys believe what you want to believe though because this is America, you know. :)
 
Personally I don't know anything about the Miami incident. (must do some research)

al qaeda sits back in the easy chair in pakistan smoking their heroin
Personally I hope this is true, if the Terrorist are smoking heroin, even if they just started this war on Terrorism should be over soon.

But as for the Ft. Dix thing being beer talk, heck they trained, they had access to the base, they had weapons. We got clued into them because of an alert store clerk. Personally, I am surprised that Islamic terrorists have not done more attacks like this especially in shopping malls (and this has already been in several books and such) No need for language skills, no need for training other than shoot and reload, no need for false ids and any complexity. Just enter a shopping mall (Christmas time would be the best time) and spray and pray.

If you wanted to damage us economically hurt retailers in the biggest shopping season of the year. Of course maybe the internet could pick up the slack.

So Jake, I am not sure are you still saying that Terrorists and International Criminal Organiztions are similiar (I say Tactics yes, Intent and Goals no)
 
Joliet Jake said:
Yes maybe the common criminal but not the international mafioso types.
They are the same. They weigh the risks for personal gain.

(These) Terrorists don't do that. There is no risk too great, so long as they provide the terror, in order to substitute your philosphy for theirs. Don't want to buy into their belief system? Then they want you dead. Simple as that.

The only personal gain for the fanatical religionists is one of faith. Not so the common crook or the organized crook.

Couch it how you want, they are worlds apart.
 
BTW JJ,

British polls: Two just-released opinion surveys of British Muslims suggest a very substantial Islamist percentage. Of the many questions asked, perhaps the most revealing in this regard is the one whether the respondent agrees that "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end." An astounding 1/3rd of those asked did agree with this statement.

33 percent feel that our way of live is bad and Muslims should change it. I believe that you are officially in check mate.
 
Antipitas,
An ordinary criminal knows he is breaking the law. These fanatical Terrorists do not even recognize that our laws are valid, let alone something he has to constrain himself to. Entirely different mindset.

Yes, there is an entirely different mindset between the common criminal and the terrorist. Not the point, because that distinction isn't drawn for the edification of the terrorists. It's drawn for the common Muslim Arab on the street.
And no, the terrorists are quite aware of what they're doing (at least the higher-ups) which is why they go to such great lengths to justify their actions with their manifestos and fatwas.
It's all just a high-stakes "hearts & minds" battle, and our policy has been set to help the enemy instead of defeating them.
 
GoSlash27 said:
Yes, there is an entirely different mindset between the common criminal and the terrorist. Not the point,
Entirely the point. Make the risk of being caught great enough (and the punishment, after the fact), and the crook will seek a different approach. That's one of the deterrents of criminal law.

The Terrorist will just laugh. No risk or consequence of getting caught will deter the terrorist.
 
TwoXForr said:
But as for the Ft. Dix thing being beer talk, heck they trained, they had access to the base, they had weapons. We got clued into them because of an alert store clerk. Personally, I am surprised that Islamic terrorists have not done more attacks like this especially in shopping malls (and this has already been in several books and such) No need for language skills, no need for training other than shoot and reload, no need for false ids and any complexity. Just enter a shopping mall (Christmas time would be the best time) and spray and pray.

If you wanted to damage us economically hurt retailers in the biggest shopping season of the year.

My point exactly. We had 2 dirtbag americans that weren't even allowed to purchase firearms somehow get a lowly bushmaster and terrorize DC for almost a month but they, the ft dix pizza boys, didn't think of it but instead were going down in a 5 minute glory of alluh at a US Army base but they've been planning this for over a year and still were and had no weapons yet to even do it? Or no terrorists have thought of sniping innocent women and children civilians from a hidden location? I thought that was their method? But the dix boys were going to sneak onto a heavily armed and guarded Army Base and try to kill military personell? If anyone thinks our bases aren't heavily guarded these days, go look at your local main gate. Barricades, dogs and m4's and a whole lot of em.

Don't get me wrong either, I'm sure there are real terrorists with the intelligence and financial backing that they don't need to hook up with a fbi informant but the sludge is getting deep and thick from the Gonzo boys. If you refuse to see it, that's what makes America great. More power to you.

Think Nifong and multiply it by 1000, is what you get with these justice dept personel that are begging not to be fired like 8 of their former, fellow employees were for dubious reasons.
 
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