Missed the boat.

"There's a difference between empathy and sympathy"

I used empathy for a reason.

"the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another." (American Heritage Dictionary).

If we began to empathasize with our attackers and, as you say, SEE the glaring failure in our policy, then intellectually we must not only identify with them, we must see the inherent rightness of their position.

If their position is inherently right, and ours is inherently wrong, then we must intellectually recognize that dichotomy and act accordingly -- surrender and await our fate.

Your position is fundamentally flawed because it demands that we understand that which truly can't be understood -- that at the very base level, these individuals hate us because we are Christian.

Everything else is just icing on the cake. If our policies were somehow inherently right towards these individuals, they would still hate us because we are Christian.

I have absolutely NO capacity for either understanding or wanting to understand the motiviations of a group of cowards whose best reason for wanting to kill me is that I worship the SAME God.

I do, however, have every desire to take their war back to them -- if necessary by the most violent, destructive means necessary.

If, however, you wish to attempt to intellectualize this as a matter of "failed policies" and long-term slights, that is your personal choice and path to destruction.

Not mine.
 
Joliet Jake Please tell us the difference between "ordinary criminals" and the international types? Besides scale.

They both go around or disregard the law for thier own profit.

In my opinion they do not want the current system to fail, they just want to work around, or outside the system.

Wheras Terroists (what ever ideology they follow) want the system to fail and replace it with something different.

Please correct my logic or supplement it if I am wrong.


Also what mission was the Army
were never intended for
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? They have trained in counter-insurgency and country building (Missions other Than War, and Low Intensity Conflict....) Maybe not the whole Army but some segments do train for that enviroment, and they in turn train other segments to complete the mission.
 
These groups have corrupted the Koran for centuries, in one form or another. They wish to keep their people in poverty, to the 13th century standards that they can reach back to, when the Arab World was the progressive scientific oasis. Trouble is, the world has changed, and they haven't.

To be relevant, their philosophy is ingrained from the earliest ages, and provides cannon-fodder for sensationalist attacks. This worked in the 15th century, as well as today. The technology is just better. Fundameantalism is the ultimate believer in the tiered-society. You are born into a social stratus, and the only way to rise above your strata is with the approval of the leaders, and doing only what they approve for you.

The reason for the invasion of Iraq were many, even though it's not PC to say so today. The overriding reason was simple, after Saddam's refusal to abide by his surrender conditions, a state of War was again in effect, under international law. The military was expected to defeat Saddam's forces, and help with the establishment of a representative form of government, as we did via the Marshall Plan. The rest is subject to whatever interpretation you find necessary.

The Fundamentalists expand beyond the "insurgents" and into the families who provide them, into the familiea who sympathize with them, and the families who tolerate them. While not PC, repercussions against those elements would eliminate many of the sources. It would also, however, push fence-sitters one way or another. That could be both good and bad, but, in the end, is the only sure way to defeat them, IMHO.

We are fighting against an amorphous, trans-national grouping of zealots, quite willing to sacrifice every one of their vassals to defeat us. Cutting off the head of the beast is always an attractive option. Removing the public heads of Fundamentalism, however you feel necessary, will also create a vacuum that can be filled with moderates. This is also a ploy that the zealots employ.
 
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that is your personal choice and path to destruction.
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Pure, unadulterated, hyperbole fear propaganda!

You have noted that they are "individuals" several times in your post and even if they are a group or organization of individuals they will never, ever defeat or destroy the soverignty of the United States.

Your chances of being involved in a terror incident are less than being struck by lightning or winning the lottery or of having a herd of elephants charge down your street. So why are you stomping around in your living room trying to scare off the elephants?

The borders have been open to anyone that wants to come on in and not one of the "millions of muslims" that "hate us for our freedoms" has yet. If even 1% or .1% of them were the evil muslims that would be 120,000 or even 1200 of em. Why didn't everyone of them buy, with their unlimited funds, a lowly bushmaster that the dc snipers terrorized the DC area with and terrorize us? There was only 2 of them and they terrorized DC for a month. What? They didn't think of that? or they really want to go down in flames and glory of allah in a 5 minute assualt on Ft. Dix?
 
The borders have been open to anyone that wants to come on in and not one of the "millions of muslims" that "hate us for our freedoms" has yet.
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Um. No.

They're here.

Some are visible in places like Dearborn, Michigan, at Hamas rallies.

And the most dangerous ones are blending in and biding their time, just as the 9/11 hijackers did.
 
"The borders have been open to anyone that wants to come on in and not one of the "millions of muslims" that "hate us for our freedoms" has yet."

Oh really?

Where did the 19 September 11 hijackers come from?

Mars? Scotty beam them down or something?

I also never mentioned the word freedoms once.


"Your chances of being involved in a terror incident are less than being struck by lightning or winning the lottery..."

I've not been personally a victim of terrorism, but I have met/known three victims of Muslim-based terrorism -- we all went to the same college (albeit at different times, but I met all three of them at different events).

John Buonocore, killed in Italy in 1985. He was a history major (as was I), and we crossed paths in a number of classes.

Ben Blutstein, killed in Israel in 2002

Mellissa Hughes, killed in NYC in 2001

I wonder if Melissa feels better knowing that none of those millions of Muslim terrorists ever came to the United States despite our porous borders.

I wonder if her husband does?

Nah, it was all just a result of our bad policies.

Right?
 
Please tell us the difference between "ordinary criminals" and the international types?
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Medell�*n Cartel

They used terror against civilians and the government to "influence" not to overthrow them and replace them. Inner city gangs use terror to keep witnesses from talking. It's nothing new. It didn't start on 911 or the invasion of iraq.

Radical islamic terrorists are but a very few of the muslims in the world and they could no more overthrow most countries than they could run them even if they did.

The radical left wing neocons would like everyone to believe that the insurgents in iraq are terrorists. Most are not, even if they're from other countries however there are some because terrorists target civilians but it's not as simple as that because in a civil war, modern warfare has morphed to a guerilla style campaign(terroristic) because of it's effectivness.

I do agree with you that MOST criminals do not have a ideological hubris but there are very few real terrorists in the world, comparatively to the world population just like most of the population aren't criminals.
 
The radical left wing neocons would like everyone to believe that the insurgents in iraq are terrorists.
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Chasing out or killing families in their homes so they can use the homes as bomb factories, punishing the innocent in revenge, kidnapping, planting bombs in marketplaces, and killing captives isn't terrorism?

You have a different definition than I do.
 
hypothetical situation

if we don't find out what caused the terrorism, then even if we eliminated all the existing (current) terrorists, more new ones will be created.

I got interested in Islamic terrorists last year after reading about female suicide bombers and mothers who were willing to send their very young children as suicide bombers.

--John
 
They hate us because at its heart all religion is devisive and opposed to rational thought.

Muslim hates Jew, Jew hates Muslim, Christian hates Jew, Protestant hates Catholic... blah blah blah. As long as people believe they will enjoy some sort of fabled paradise for denying all reason and opposing all who differ on scripture no more valuable than rough toilet paper there will always be fanatical murders in the name of faith.
 
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Mike Irwin,

Quit already. You are making way to much sense. Dont you know that America is at fault. America is bad, Radical Muslim Terrorists are freedom fighters and Ron Paul will save the day.;)
 
Joliet Jake,

I am not refering to tactics, but more thier intent. The Russian Mafia has no desire to run thier country, influence it so that thier enterprises could make more money, heck yeah, but they do not want the responsibility of running the place.

Whereas Al Queda and friends would want nothing better than to run a country according to the way they see fit. (The Taliban in Afganastain comes to mind). Suadi Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries would be easy as well they already fall under Islamic laws, maybe not the way the Islamic Terrorists would like, but it would be easier then converting say Australia to thier way of thinking and running things.

Tactics are one thing, goals is the true distingushing factor betwee Terrorists and "International Criminals"
 
JolietJake,

Pure, unadulterated, hyperbole fear propaganda!
You have noted that they are "individuals" several times in your post and even if they are a group or organization of individuals they will never, ever defeat or destroy the sovereignty of the United States.
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I'm sure that when we are attacked again and you or yours are affected your mind will suddenly change.

It is a fact that we have people actively trying to attack us via terror so to call it propaganda is just plain wrong.
 
TwoXForr said:
Whereas Al Queda and friends would want nothing better than to run a country according to the way they see fit. (The Taliban in Afganastain comes to mind). Suadi Arabia and other Middle Eastern countries would be easy as well they already fall under Islamic laws, maybe not the way the Islamic Terrorists would like,
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Isn't hamas in charge and freely elected in lebanon and the palistinian territory? One of the most militant terrorist org in the world? Al Qaeda didn't want to take over afganistan, did they, besides most of them were saudi's.

The middle east is quick sand and we're about up to our necks in it. That's why we're being attacked in iraq. The insurgents want us out and the few terrorists there want to stir the pot and al qaeda sits back in the easy chair in pakistan smoking their heroin from the largest producer in the world right next door in afganistan. That's right, they produce more heroin now than ever before.

We need to "march on out of there", iraq and afganistan, isolate it, REALLY defend our borders, let them fight themselves till they tire of it and surgically intervene when appropriate just like israel does and just like the russians do to the chechen rebels.

Playing "Glo-bal-cop" does nothing except increase the target environment and not for us.
 
I'm sure that when we are attacked again and you or yours are affected your mind will suddenly change.

It is a fact that we have people actively trying to attack us via terror so to call it propaganda is just plain wrong.
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I'll be enjoying my lottery winnings before that happens.

Like some of those 12 million that strolled across our undefended border? Not even one of the 12 million or is it 20 million? Oh they are biding their time? But not one of them was sophisticated or financed well enough to carry out even one attack yet in 5 years? You might be absolutely right though, they "might" be here now, check under your bed, while we got our boot up some innocent iraqi's butt the border is STILL OPEN wider than rosie o'fatties mouth! What a policy that is! What rocket scientist did they get that from anyway? Must have been the former national security advisor, now Sec of State, Condeninny Rice who said on 09/12/01, "Who would have envisioned someone flying an airplane into a building?", after a national security meeting 6 months prior, that she attended, warned of just that thing. And the Japs never used aircraft as suicide weapons, did they, so how could anyone ever imagine something like that? Oh Auntie Em!
 
Hey Jake

I thought we were just comparing and contrasting Terrorist vs. International Criminals (mafia, cartels and the like).

You were the one that said they were similiar and I disagreed.

Why the tangent, am I missing something. :confused:

Besides why would Al Queda want to take over Afganistan thier buddies the Taliban had control over it and let them come and go as they please, not to mention all the training camps. I said thier goal was to make other countries into thier image of Islam.

The Cartels and other criminal countries did not want to re-make thier countries, just make them easier for them to operate thus gain a bigger profit.
 
The Cartels and other criminal countries did not want to re-make thier countries, just make them easier for them to operate thus gain a bigger profit.
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Agreed. But it's still terrorism and that medellin dude owned that country. Instead of extriditing him to the US they let him build his own prison, kinda like paris wanted to do. lol. I guess what I was getting at was the methods of both are similar, bombs and innocent civilians. I just think we would do better, especially with our technology, targeting known proven terror cells and staying out of other countries business. We had a tremendous amount of worldwide sympathy and cooperation until we squandered it on iraq. If all the world's intelligence communities worked together ther would be nowhere to hide for the real terrorists.

Why the tangent, am I missing something
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Sorry, it just comes across like that on the internet sometimes. I meant no foul to you personally.
 
Joliet, Do you live in a prime terrorist target area? Do you deny that we have foiled several terror plots since 9-11?

Since you are a betting man would you be willing to put money on the U.S. not being attacked again in say the next 5 years? I say we will be.....how much? Do you believe that no terrorists have crossed our porous border?

As for you odds my uncle hit the lottery 12 years or so ago so perhaps I just understand that crapola happens. Difference is if you hit the terror lottery I won't be able to say I told you so.
 
Isn't hamas in charge and freely elected in lebanon and the palistinian territory?
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Hamas has gained a political setting, and power, in the Palestinian Territories. They have not in Lebanon, who is currently moving against the Palestinians/Hamas. Check the papers.:)
 
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