Minimum cartridge trend?

I like a bullet caliber that will reach the boiler room of a deer from any angle, as well as having the ability to take down any other critter that inhabits the woods --- That said --- I believe that a 223 sized bullet caliber, is a little bit dicey to use for deer sized game, since good bullet placement is a requirement for such a round.
 
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My favorite is a 30-06. I don't understand how so many people say it's a punishing round. I can shoot them all day long with a solid steel recoil pad. I also use 7MM Mauser, 8MM Mauser, 30-30 and several varieties of traditional muzzle loaders. I wouldn't give a dead rats behind for anything in 5.56. Yeah I'm old school and proud of it.
 
Recoil tolerance

Hawg--I hear what you're saying. But you evidently can handle recoil with narry a flinch. Not all of us are like that. Heck, after 50 rounds of 22-250 I get to jumping at the trigger break. And the older I grt the worse it affects me.

The question that needs answered is, will 1000 ft. Lbs. of energy with a decent projectile kill deer sized game or not? Does 2000 ft lbs work any better on a poorly placed shot? IMHO there are 3 components to cleanly taking game:
Good bullet
Proper shot placement
Adequate energy

A 6mm medium game bullet in the vitals with at least 1000 ft lbs of energy is plenty for me. I hunt to enjoy the experience of taking an animal cleanly and then eating it. A 30-06 is miserable to shoot, for me. 243 Win is fun to shoot.
As always, YMMV.
 
Hawg I don't know many people that think the 30-06 is "punishing" round, I do know quite a few people that say it can make a mess of a deer inside woods hunting range and I have to agree, last deer taken with my 30-06 had a basketball sized exit wound (bullet fragmented) and almost the whole front half of the deer was dog meat. I have since retired the 06 from deer hunting and keep it loaded with TTSX for trophy hog hunting. I would argue that nobody south of Iowa needs that much gun for whitetail. 7mm-08 and 6.5x55 drop them with an authority without having to scrape them off of the trees.
 
The 243 been around since 1955 so it's not a newcomer to the shooting world and it's same with 30-06.

I sure can't understand why anyone would shoot a rifle that is bother by the recoil when there been options.

We can't use 22 cal for big game in Co but as long as I've been hunting Co since 1977 you can use 6mm with 70gr bullet for deer/antelope and 85gr bullet for elk/moose (must have 1,000lb impact energy 100yds).

I'm legal to use my 243 or 243AI to hunt big game with same as I can use my 30-06.
 
Like many others say, I'm not a big fan of using the 223 or my 220 Swift for deer hunting. I've killed deer with both, and if I had to do it again, I think I'd favor the 223 - due to heavier bullets with tougher construction. There was a time when I thought the 243 was not enough gun, but now that I've shot a bunch of deer and hogs with a 100 gr bullet in my 260, I've changed my mind on the 243. I shoot the 100 gr bullet at approx 3000 fps in my 260 and that's about the same thing you can do with a 243.

Now, having said the above, the 120 gr bullet in my 260 has been more effective on deer and pigs than the 100 grain. Doesn't kill them any deader, but definitely seems to kill them faster. No way to measure that, but that's what I think based on observation. And the 130 gr bullet in my 270 does the job even a bit better. Again, that's purely based on observation, but it's observation on many deer over many years.

I think I'd do just fine hunting deer with a 243. And I'd do fine with a 223, but more blood trailing would likely be necessary, and I'm not as good at tracking as I was when younger.
 
The question that needs answered is, will 1000 ft. Lbs. of energy with a decent projectile kill deer sized game or not? Does 2000 ft lbs work any better on a poorly placed shot?
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I sort of see this at the 800 lb gorilla in the room. Few people like to admit that a more powerful bullet certainly may work better with some poorly placed shots than a less powerful bullet. After all, we do NOT want to promote the notion of not needing to be as accurate with our shots. We DO want to promote the idea that we are only going to take the most accurate shot possible and in doing so, it is obvious that we don't need super powerful cartridges to accomplish the task. As noted above, animals don't get any deader.

However, the reality is that for a variety of reasons, we don't always make perfect shots and that well intended heart shot ends up 3" off the mark for some reason (wind gust, flinch, buck fever, animal started to move after trigger was pulled, etc.). That is just a reality of hunting. Do you want a less powerful cartridge does less tissue damage that might result in the animal suffering a prolonged death or one that might be considered "overkill" for the job that will put the animal down more quickly by penetrating deeper or doing more tissue damage despite the shot being less than great?

So with bigger, more powerful rounds, you do have the benefit of more probable tissue damage which should translate into being able to kill animals with less precise shot, but at the expense of recoil and wastage. With smaller, less powerful rounds, reasonably quick lethality may mean making more precise shots, but with the benefits of less recoil and less wastage.

So there has to be a balance. Right now, the swing is toward smaller and less powerful rounds, in part (and as noted) because bullet designs are now such that we can see similar types of tissue damage from these rounds now that are comparable to more powerful loads of yesteryear.
 
We have all had a less then perfect shot, my most notable was my first feral hog, I made the mistake of shooting him like a deer and at 150yards I hit him exactly where I was aiming, right behind the shoulder halfway up, and of course completely missed all of the vitals in the process. Had I made that shot with the 22-250 I am certain we never would have found that hog, but my 6.5x55 blew a 3" hole through him and out the other side, he sprayed blood like a fire hose for about 40 yards where he fell down and died. So having a little extra is certainly a good thing but you don't need a 300 Win mag either. As far as recoil goes I am completely comfortable with everything up to and including a 270 or 308, I can shoot my 30-06 and magnums many times at the range but I have to wear my shoulderpad or it starts to sting after a couple boxes so I don't think I am quite as accurate with them as I am with my 6.5x55 or 7mm-08 both of which are an absolute delight to shoot and the only two centerfire rifles I have ever shot legit one hole groups with.
 
I may catch some grief for this, but I don't understand the big deal behind ruining a shoulder on a deer. I hardly find them worth messing with to start with.
 
Not everyone has an assortment of rifles,like golf clubs,to select one for any task.
Its entirely reasonable (some would say "normal") for a person to have one centerfire rifle.The "hunting rifle" . For a whole lot of folks,the battery is a .22,a shotgun,and a big game rifle.
IMO,maybe up into the 80's and 90's,I'd venture that was typical.
Rifle selection was somewhat regional,but without hard and fast rules.For many folks who hunted in the woods,"Deer Rifle" meant something with a lever.
Yet there is no denying the DCM Springfields,P-17's,etc,and the "sporter" changed folks idea what a hunting rifle was. And sure,the commercial makers were there,too.
What was true then,is true today.
For any big game hunting that needed doing,at least in North America,if you showed up with a 30-06,you showed up with the "right" gun.
Of course,it was necked up and down. 25-06 to 35 Whelen.And,there were Mausers.The 7x57,gave us the 6mmrem,and 257 R.The 8mm,no slouch.6.5x55,too.
Then there were the 30-06 "equivalent" cartridges,with 30-06 the standard..300 Savage,and 308,and all the derivatives.

All of those pretty much defined the standard,and all will slap down game animals.

I started as a teen in the late 60's with a 7mm Rem Magnum.I walked into the gun store to buy a .270.The one in the store had a feed problem,so I left with the 7mm.
Of course,that became my new standard.At some point,20 some years ago,I decided I wanted less messy kills.I went to the 257 AI.I shot better,it was enough,it killed really well.But I had a larger rifle for elk.

I don't hunt much anymore.Some things,my body is done with.If I build more hunting rifles,I'll likely have my Grandkids in mind.I have mine to give them.
But,maybe.....The idea of a light,elegant 6.5 Grendel on a Howa is appealing.
IMO,that cartridge qualifies well.I'll probably pass my AR's on to them,but I'll lean them toward a bolt gun for hunting.My predudice.

I don't use a .223 on big game. I have other choices.IMO,its marginal,has limitations.That does not mean I criticize anyone for using it.

I have seen irresponsible shooting,with associated wounding/suffering,with big,belted cartridges.It is not the cartridge that does it.

If I were giving advice,my predudiced opinion would suggest .250Savage,.243,260,6.5 Grendel ,as good cartridges to select.I would give them a nod

If you choose to hunt with your AR-15,etc,in .223..if you do your part,you can make it work,but,IMO,its not ideal.I would give it a shrug.

For perspective,a .357 Mag handgun or a .45 cal roundball muzzle loader are regarded as adequate for deer hunting.

With a proper bullet,the .223 AR willcreate more wound channel,and potentially can be fired with more precision.
 
I’ve been hunting on vacation since this thread started and waited to reply until I had a full keyboard instead of my phone.

To the OP I have to ask: is this really a "race to the bottom?" This also sends us into the subjective topic of what constitutes "the bottom?” Where is it? Do we determine that from foot pounds of energy on impact, impact velocity, available bullets, or some subjective determinant that meets some “appropriateness” quotient?

From reading gun rags, folks’ posts here, and my personal experience, most shots are taken inside of 100 yards. Our esteemed brethren out west face longer shots not because of lack of stalking or hunting skills, but due to terrain. Their requirements differ from the guy who grows up hunting thick woods. I was firmly entrenched in my paradigm (dense woods and swamps) until this board and the USAF broadened my perspective. I suspect others (a minority) here hold to their own paradigms on what they experience and believe it to be universal.

Considering the average range of inside 100 yards, and let’s constrain the discussion to deer and hogs, do you need the energy of a traditional deer round? No! Let me be clear, I am not saying the guy who is shooting a 30-06 in an area where the longest shot is 100 yards is wrong. Neither is the guy carrying a .280, 7mmRM, .308, 7mm-08, .257 Roberts, etc. However, if you know your range is limited, what is wrong with downsizing to a cartridge that delivers an acceptable energy level on impact? What is wrong with shooting a cartridge that is more comfortable to shoot, which often leads to increased accuracy?

I shoot my Rem 700BDL .308 fine. I shoot an AR-15 in 6.8 SPC better! I also enjoy it more. The 6.8 SPC in a 120 gr SST offering from Hornady delivers 1,000 foot pounds out to 300 yards. Why would this be a bad cartridge at 100 yards? On top of that, the 6 deer taken in Texas and Missouri with this rifle have shown more than adequate results in terms of terminal performance. The only case of having to track a deer an excessive distance was one I shot last week… I gut shot it, plain and simple. I had an unstable rest and pulled the shot. Had it been my .308, the outcome would have been the same. Extra horsepower would not have made up for my lack of performance.

I have also witnessed people using large-for-game calibers hit deer and not put it on the ground. Learning to hunt in Florida, we had a hunter one season shoot and lose not 1, but 2 deer in the WMA I hunted shooting a .338 Win Mag. We are talking a German Sheppard sized deer. It demonstrates that even lots of extra power cannot make up for a lack of marksmanship.
Also, I’ve repeated this on here before: the animal gets a vote! I witnessed a doe take two .270 130gr Core-Lokts in the chest, hitting both lungs, and go over 100 yards before burying herself into a palmetto thicket. Tell me a .270 with 130gr Core Lokts is too small for a 90 pound deer… This is just one example; there are others out there: heart shots, lung shots, busted shoulders, and damage that seems to fly in the face of common sense on how the animal could have made it so far.

Back to the smaller cartridge discussion: so as long as I understand the limitations of the particular cartridge I am shooting, and my particular hunting conditions do not permit me going beyond those limitations, there is nothing wrong with me downsizing. Beyond that, if conditions change, I have to honor those limitations and pass on shots outside my cartridges capabilities.

If its legal, and the hunter is using it responsibly, why bash the guy/gal?

It's true that the popularity of the AR-15 drove some of the smaller cartridges like 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, etc. There is nothing wrong with that. For a couple generations of service members, they are thoroughly comfortable with the platform. Add to that the election concerns over the last couple years and there are a ton of AR-15s out there. Despite the discussions over their use in home defense scenarios, the reality is most are collecting dust leaving some owners looking for other uses. Getting an extra upper in another caliber that is more useful for hunting is a great way expand its use.

Each of my kids have one in 6.8 SPC for hunting. Why? With the felt-recoil-reducing operating system combined with a 6 position adjustable stock, it is easy for kids to master and it grows with them by extending the stock!
 
In 2004 I watched a big doe saunter up from a creekbed, stand in an open field and scratch her ear with a hind hoof. She had stopped perfectly in line with a big cottonwood tree. I watched this from the concealment and solid shooting platform of a blown-down oak, 130 yards away, and when she put her hoof down I calmly centered her heart with a 150 grain Sierra SP from a 30-06, leaving the barrel at a chronographed 2947 fps.

At the shot, she walked about 20 yards and jumped over a 5 strand fence and out of sight. I stood there with my mouth open wondering what the hell went wrong... I had checked the zero with that load only the day before. I found her dead right where she landed after jumping the fence. I hit her exactly where I was holding and you could have dropped a silver dollar through the exit hole. Field dressing revealed an exploded heart. I walked back to the cottonwood tree and pried the bullet free of the bark, expanded right down to within a quarter inch of the base. There was literally nothing more you could ask of a hunting bullet in that situation; yet the doe walked off like nothing happened.

Fast forward ten years... same rifle, powder charge, same bullet weight; with the only substitution being a conventional Hornady bullet of the same weight. A doe about the same size as the first walks out of the fencerow and stops, this time at 156 long steps. Same broadside presentation. I hit her in exactly the same spot, give or take an inch, and she dropped like a piano fell on her.

Lesson learned? I guess they're a hell of a lot tougher if they have itchy ears ;)
 
And it is based on that sort of evidence that people will base their beliefs in bullets, calibers, shot placement, etc., Sarge, no kidding. Obviously, the Hornady bullet was superior. :rolleyes:

The bottom line is that you simply cannot count on a round to absolutely drop an animal in place unless your bullet absolutely does significant damage to higher CNS. Otherwise, oxygen deprivation and/or exsanguination have to be allowed to run their course and the animal can cover a goodly amount of distance before that happens - sometimes just over a fence and sometimes more than 100 yards.
 
I'm partial to the 30-06 for hunting whitetails, and I would be leery of taking a 243 shot --- on say --- a large Canadian Alberta buck.

A shoulder shot on a whitetail...is my preferred shot placement on a deer with woods crowded with hunters --- Since I figure he'll jump-up and fall straight down like a rock when I hit him with a shoulder shot.

The muzzleloader round ball, is a poor bullet choice for a shoulder shot on a deer, since it'll flatten out like a pie plate and suffer poor penetration as well when hitting large bone.

"The smaller 243 does not have the reliability of punching through bone on say a shoulder shot then you would with a more powerful round."

quote: http://www.deer30outdoors.com/caliber-selection-for-whitetail-deer
 
A premium .243 bullet is going to go through a lot of different animals shoulder bones.
Funny how a 25-06 is considered by some to be miles ahead of the lowly 243, no offense to 25-06 shooters.;)
 
sometimes just over a fence and sometimes more than 100 yards.
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I have shot a few deer in the heart, not necessarily exactly where I was aiming, but that is where it ended up. Really interesting how far they go or don't go. I don't know what determines it.
 
Hawg I don't know many people that think the 30-06 is "punishing" round, I do know quite a few people that say it can make a mess of a deer inside woods hunting range and I have to agree, last deer taken with my 30-06 had a basketball sized exit wound (bullet fragmented) and almost the whole front half of the deer was dog meat.
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I see people here always complaining about how hard a 30-06, 308, even a 30-30 kicks. I use a Hornady 165 grain BTBT with 57 grains of IMR 4350 and have taken deer as close as 40 yards without that happening. Yes they fragment at that range but most of it stays inside the deer leaving an exit wound smaller than the entrance. I have experienced that kind of blowup with a .257 WM.
 
Erno, after looking at that link I would hardly claim that as an "authoritative" source when it comes to cartridge selection. "Big Randy" uses a 30-06 but claims a .308 does much more damage to meat. In the same article he lists .270 as a minimum cartridge for deer. Add in references to the RUM cartridges and it pretty apparent he suffers from the same paradigm issues I was mentioning.

With a varmit loading, I would not expect a .243 to pass through the shoulders. But with bullets intended for large game, I would not expect much issue at reasonable ranges.
 
Hawg I was also using 57gr of 4350 but a 165gr SGK,messed up three Alabama deer before I retired it, and that last one was just horrifying damage. Now that I have a TTSX load dialed in just right I might give it one more try with that bullet but even with a mono metal I think the damage might be a little excessive, next pig that comes by the house I'll give it a try and let you know what it looks like. 30-06 recoil even with full power handloads is not bad, not fun like shooting a 7mm-08 but not at all painful until you start on the third box.
 
The natives killed how many deer with little home made bows? What in the world makes you think some shoulder fired cannon is nessecary? "I dont like having to track em". Well then you are just lazy. .......sorry. I grew up in Texas where 270 was "bare minimum". Apparently all the deer I killed with a .22 when I was a kid didnt get the memo.
 
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