Minimum cartridge trend?

Let's not get picky about word choices, okay? That winds up with an off-topic squabble. Then I gotta clean up the mess. Bummer.
 
I remember when I got out of the Marines later 60's and live in Ca, hunters where using 243,250-3000 Savage,300 Savage,257 Roberts,284 beside 270/30-06.

Guy I worked with got me started reloading use 257 RobertsAI.

I don't think there ever been a lack of short action calibers if you wanted one. I got old Wildcat manual for the 50's. One was 6.5x257 Roberts.

No question 6.5's have come long was but so have 30 cal/7mm,6mm,22 cal.
 
I think some clarification on AR's need to be made. Because AR-15's are chambered in manydifferent calibers than just .223/5.56.

Many AR-15 calibers are easily capable of taking whitetail and larger at reasonable distances. I'll say 0-200 yards. Some will reach farther, but 95% of hunters shoot game at less than 200 yards.

.450BM, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8SPC, 30 Rem AR are several in SAAMI Spec cartridges.

Then there are less known "specialty" or wildcat cartridges. .45VRAP, 458 Socom, 50 Beowulf, 6.5BRX, .257 Bobcat, 7mm Valkyrie, .277 WLV and I'm sure many more. Then currently being developed is the .358 Yeti and .30 Sabercat.

The rounds I listed are no more capable or less capable than the proven .243, 7-08, .308,.270,30-06, etc. It's just that AR's are typically same weight or heavier and many people shoot the lighter recoiling semi autos better.
 
Small caliber does not mean black gun. People were shooting "Under powered" cartridges long before the black guns came along. I have hunted WV for over 20 years and the regulations still have "A rimfire rifle of .25 caliber or larger" as deer legal. Not my "Go to" rifle, but apparently it is for someone.
 
I'm old school.

Great post I just purchased at 500$ off a Leupold VX6 3x18x50 W/CDS and illuminated recticle.I already have a new SPS 30-06 W/VX3I 4.5x14x50,been shooting 700 30-06 for many years that won't change.Shot a 6.5 creedmore Ruger American just 2 days ago and loved it very accurate and fun to shoot,just not buying into lower horse power for accuracy thing.A lot of great replies on here.
 
Well, unlike the typical forum hunter I have actually gut shot at least two bucks that I remember. Felt bad about it, but I found and ate them just the same.
I'm have some doubt that would have been the case with a 22 caliber.

The whole problem with the perfect shot concept is that in the real world that is not always the case.
 
You probably would have found them faster if you were using a smaller, faster cartridge. My ex gut shot a big doe and there was nothing left. The gut area just exploded. She was using a .257 Roberts. Just my own observation- It seems with guns or bows, the bigger and more powerful the weapon, the more a person tries to extend it's capabilities.
 
That's where you lose me. You are never 100% sure what the bullet is going to do. But, you are always sure pi are square.:)
 
There are times when a lot of penetration is just the ticket. A friend was looking for a meat deer years ago. We I jumped a fat doe and he planted a 325 grain LBT bullet at about 1300 fps, from a Bisley 45 Colt. The bullet struck 4" under and left of its tail as as it started off from its bed. The deer dropped like a rock and we found a thumb sized exit near the center of its neck. You can loosely equate that performance to the standard pressure 45-70.

Assuming good sturdy cup & core bullets, the 308/30-06 and bigger centerfires are going to bore 18-24 inches or shoot through a deer at any angle. This simply allows you to nail the vitals from oblique angles you wouldn't dream of trying with a varmint gun pressed into service as a deer rifle. I've take deer cleanly with a 223 and 65 grain softpoints; but I picked my shots as if I was using a compound bow or a 357 revolver loaded with 125 grain bullets. Knowing the 223 would penetrate far less than my usual rifle, I slipped one into the heart where the least amount of deer was between me and it.
 
I typically shoot deer from 5-50 yards, closest one was directly under me, last deer I saw was too young, but she walked within 5 yards of me.

I don't need 3000 foot pounds of energy and 3000+ fps to kill deer at this range, the .35 Remington with a 200 grain bullet doesn't let them run far. Low recoil in a 7lb rifle firing a 200 grain bullet. Good size hole has always left plenty of blood.

Last deer I saw killed with a .30-06 pretty much turned a whole shoulder into dog food. Last 35 i put through a shoulder left a golf ball sized exit wound through it and the majority of it was salvageable.
 
Fashion trends

I just recently bought a Mossberg patriot in 300 win mag because I hope to hunt out west someday.But I would not be too quick to condemn the 6.8 spc,is very close to the 250 savage in ballistics.Elmer Keith ,Townsend Wheelan and others felt that the little savage was plenty good for deer.I have a friend that uses a 223 for deer,a former U.S. marine and a county deputy.He is a very(and I do mean very) accomplished marksman.My personal tastes are for more than enough needed.Overkill ain't a bad thing!If though you can cleanly and ethnically take game with it I have no trouble with it.The $64,000 question is how many can honestly do it.
 
While I will defend most small calibers within reason I would prefer to never have to use a 223 for deer hunting. Living in Texas where it is legal I have seen many deer and hogs shot with 223s and in general I am less then impressed. While I would bet that nobody here could tell the difference between a deer shot through the vitals with my 6.5x55 and my 7mm Rem Mag I have never seen that kind of reaction by a deer hit by a 22 caliber, only one ever dropped on the spot and only because the bullet broke it's leg, seen a few deer hit with a 6.8SPC but not enough to form an educated opinion on it's use in hunting, seems solid though, should hit with 1,000 ft/lbs or better to about 250 yards with a 110-120gr .277 caliber bullet so it certainly meets all the basic criteria within normal hunting range so just judging on the ballistics I would call it an adequate cartridge.
The smallest cartridge that I have ever personally deer hunted with is the 243 and I never felt the urge to use anything smaller.
 
So far, I have shot four deer with the .223 Rem out of my AR15. Two last year and two this year. One was a doe at 10 yards that ran in front of me. She folded up as soon as she was hit. I then shot a nice 8-point buck through the chest at 80 yards. He turned to his right and staggered about 10 yards before falling over dead. I shot a spike buck at 52 yards while he was running. He also immediately folded up when he was hit. I then shot a large doe at 129 yards behind her right shoulder as she was looking back over that shoulder at me. She dropped where she stood. I used Federal 62 grain Fusion factory loads.

I have shot numerous wild hogs with handloaded Sierra 65 grain Game King bullets and never has any issues with them. I've also shot a bunch with the .308 Win. I couldn't tell any difference between the two cartridges.

A lot of people in my neck of the woods also do just fine killing large numbers of deer with the .243 Winchester.
 
Yeah, I don't see a difference either, except in meat loss. I think I only ever shot one deer with a .243, but a few with a 6mm. I remember at least two deer offering only a broadside shot that went right down. The bullet went through high in their lungs and there was so much pressure it disrupted the spine without hitting it. Some people had a bad experience one time and are just turned off by lighter bullets. Most of the complaining is internet gossip. There were not that many small caliber hunters in the PA deer woods 30-40 years ago, but the amount of wounded deer running around was really high.
One year I was hunting the first week of deer in WV. It was hot that year(70's) and on Thanksgiving day I found a good sized 8 point buck laying dead in a swamp. There was a white spot down near the base of the rack, and it was a small flake chipped out where a bullet went through. Looked to be about a .270 or 7MM went through the base of the rack. I don't doubt that someone unloaded on the deer when it was running away. Think it was the small diameter bullet, or maybe the shooter?
 
Sitting in a stand and waiting for a broadside shot is really what opens up the possibilities of the minimum cartridge challenge.

Heck my Dad, Uncle and Grandpa shot many, many, a deer with .410 slugs and .22LR. It's what they had. Their style (and range) was akin to how most bowhunters hunt today, minus the camo and accessories, lol. When Grandpa got his Dads .30-30, that was a big deal.

Extended range, roaming or pushing still requires the use of a cartridge sufficient for the task.
 
.223/5.56 has killed untold 10s of thousands of people with FMJ ammo, I figure it'll do fine on a 100-150lb deer with decent hunting ammo.
 
OP update:

This has been a great discussion and I appreciate the input from everybody.

My son killed his first deer this morning with a 6.8 SPC II @ 100 yds. The Hornady SST bullet made a small entry wound and an exit hole the size of a quarter. It left a decent blood trail for 30 yds or so, then quit. We found him piled up another 20 yds away and a piece of lung plugging the exit hole from the inside.

One deer is hardly definitive and I'm not impressed enough to call it. I've had deer drop DRT with the 7-08 and I've had them run 100 yards after being hit in the exact same spot with a 30-06. More research is clearly needed
 
You never know how an animal will react when it is shot. While I would like every animal I shoot to drop dead on the spot, I think that is an unrealistic expectation, regardless of caliber, bullet type, or how well the shot was placed.
 
If I have the time, a neck shot. In a hurry, I try to stay a little high with the vitals shot.
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The spine in the neck provides a tiny target in a long, thin line, compared to the heart/lungs/liver area which provides a larger target from any direction. I realize some hunters still aim for the neck but I just can't understand why they would do it if they know the three-dimensional size of the heart/lungs/liver. :confused:
 
I was a little too general there. I go for a neck shot if the deer is facing me or standing with it's back towards me. A side shot at the neck is really dicey and the situation would have to be absolutely perfect. Even then, I would hesitate a side neck shot. Country to popular belief, a lot of deer have been shot in the side of the neck and still made a run for it. Nothing wrong with a vitals shot, if you know where they are. With the added winter wool, a lot of people have a tendency to shoot too low. The heart and lungs sit a lot higher on a live, walking deer than a whole lot of people think. Situation is everything. I have head shot deer that were in laurel and from the neck down were screened by too many branches for a clear shot. Sitting with your rifle across a blow down is way different than getting caught in an open space with no tree to lean against, and the brush too high to get on one knee. You have to tailor your hunting to the area and situation. If hunting was a sure thing, I would probably quit.
 
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