Minimum cartridge trend?

PA has a late season for bow, after rifle season. Good time to scout around for next year or just get out of the house. Back when PA was still overrun with deer, I would find dead deer all the time. I did logging/landclearing for a little while and we found a LOT of dead deer in the brush after deer season in the shotgun areas. I used to check my fox traps with binoculars, and I saw a lot of shot up deer limping around in the shotgun areas. I have killed many a deer that was already hit during rifle season. Some healed over from years before, some not. I was out today and saw a spike. At first I thought it was a doe, but the body looked too blocky to be a doe. I sat down and watched it feed toward me and it took quite a while before I was actually sure it was a spike, even with a scope. There was a drive going on in the swamp below the mountain I was on. Had that spike been caught in a drive, it would have been shot for a doe for sure (Illegal). Some guys would just let it lay.
It would be tough to do a study on deer loss with any accuracy.
 
I have found five dead on my property in the last year. One nice buck, but I couldn't tell if he had been shot in the hind quarters perhaps since they were already eaten by coyotes or buzzards.

The other four had no signs of injury although it is possible one of them was hit by a car since he was fairly close to the road. I think the rest were likely hemorrhagic fever.

Personally, I don't have any strong conviction that a man that can't shoot a 30/06 will suddenly become a marksman with a 223 or 243 .
 
Not my point. It would seem that some people think there will be an avalanche of wounded deer now that people are using lighter rounds for deer hunting. I heard the same thing from the compound bow hunters when PA wanted to make the crossbow legal. In reality, it WAS the compound bow hunters losing all the deer. Nothing is going to change. Some people will take stupid shots and some will not. Some will be lost no matter how careful people are.
 
I have noticed that person's sensitivity to recoil a lot of times has nothing to do with how physically big a person is. A friend of mine that I worked with is a pretty big guy and fairly strong. He had a revolver chambered in .480 Ruger and sold it because he couldn't handle the recoil. I have another friend who has a .480 Ruger and he has absolutely no problem with the recoil, and he isn't much bigger than me. I have a cousin that thinks the .30-06 kicks like a mule, and therefore doesn't shoot one very well, but he is deadly accurate with his Remington 700 in .223 Remington.
 
I have noticed that person's sensitivity to recoil a lot of times has nothing to do with how physically big a person is.
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You're right about that. My first wife weighs 110 lbs and her favorite handgun is a hot loaded Ruger Super Blackhawk. She will shoot it til the ammo runs out. My stepdaughter has been pulling both triggers at the same time on my SXS 12 gauge with no recoil pad shooting clays since she was 13 or 14 but my 20 gauge SXS kicks too hard. :D
 
I think The Magnumitis that began 20 years ago has pretty much run it's course ...
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I watched it die in one little part of this area. A "custom" rifle maker in the area lamented to me that while he always hunted with the lastest/greatest magnum rifle cartridge, his son always hunted with a .260Rem he had built for him. He expected better performance from his magnums, but according to him, his son's deer always collapsed on the spot while his nearly always ran.
I have never seen any data on wounded or dead lost deer.
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It's difficult to find. Here's some information on the topic.

Below is an excerpt from an article by Greg Rodriguez entitled “Return to Reason”. The article was published in the May 2008 issue of Shooting Times.

...

I take note of caliber, bullet, shot distance, shot placement, and the distance each animal runs after the shot. Over the last three seasons, hunters on one of the ranches I run took 92 deer and 27 hogs. Of those my tracking dog ran down 21 deer and 8 hogs. Two hogs and four deer were never recovered.
...

Further digging revealed that all but four of the animals that had to be tracked more than 50 yards were shot with magnum rifles. All but one animal that was wounded and lost were shot with a magnum of some sort.

That revelation inspired me to go back a few more years, and the result were pretty much the same: The majority of poor shots were made with magnums.

Those figures are not, in my opinion, an indictment of magnums. Rather they indicate that horsepower does not make up for poor shot placement. And given equal shot placement, bigger cartridges have little real advantage because, well, dead is dead.
...​
 
Too bad Greg is no longer with us... Would have been interesting if he had continued his data collection to see what trends would emerge in the following 8 years.
 
Personally, I don't have any strong conviction that a man that can't shoot a 30/06 will suddenly become a marksman with a 223 or 243 .
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I think at least half of perceived recoil is just that: if you believe the gun will kick the hell out of you, you'll not deal with the recoil appropriately, and it will do just that. And you will flinch..... if you hit anything in the process, it will be completely by accident.

If you don't think the gun kicks, you will be free to do all the things you are supposed to do, and if you do those things, and remain focused on what you are supposed to be focused on, than you won't even notice the recoil at all.
 
If you don't think the gun kicks, you will be free to do all the things you are supposed to do, and if you do those things, and remain focused on what you are supposed to be focused on, than you won't even notice the recoil at all.
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I disagree slightly. I agree the shot may be just as accurate but the recoil is sharp, physical pressure on the shoulder. I took my only black bear (while on an elk hunt) at 400+ yards with my .300 Win Mag. The bear was very small, only about 130 lbs. The shot was very accurate and the bear dropped instantly and never moved. BUT I definitely "noticed" - actually felt - the recoil. On the other hand, there have been numerous instances in which people were seriously injured but didn't realize it immediately (including firearms injuries). The recoil of my .300 Win Mag feels significantly greater than the recoil of my very light .270 in a very light Brown Precision stock.
 
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I don't think that the issue is felt recoil while hunting. I believe the issue is felt recoil while practicing. That does a couple of things. It conditions a flinch and it cuts down on practice. Both of those have an impact while hunting even if the shooter never feels the recoil when they're shooting a game animal.
 
Anticipation of recoil is very real. Recoil is also real. Humans certainly react differently to the recoil of a rifle, but I doubt if the brain does not sense the recoil. How the brain and body react are related, but slightly different, issues. Sudden, sharp pain generally produces a visible body reaction, but the reactions vary.
 
The recoil of my .300 Win Mag feels significantly greater than the recoil of my very light .270 in a very light Brown Precision stock.
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There is a threshold for recoil tolerance that varies with different people.

Seems like a quantum difference between a 30/06 and the 300 Magnums to me, although I know on paper it doesn't look like it would be.
 
I don't recall ever shooting a rifle that hurt when I pulled the trigger. I've had a 6lb 270 and a 5lb 308 that hurt when I moved my shoulder after the shot but never a sharp pain at the moment of the shot. I've shot some big guns and I've set my limit to 375 h&h for scoped rifles. I truely believe that most flinching is caused from muzzle blast and the rifle jumping up. I am mostly a hunter but I do enjoy some target work. 500 yards is my norm. I shoot all rifles I own from a bench with only my trigger finger hand touching the rifle. Some rifles jump alot and people who have seen me shoot them either refuse to shoot or hold the gun so tight with both hands that they can't possibly make a accurate shot. We all know atleast one person who has been hit by a scope and that is where your flinch starts.

I've set up video cameras at my bench so people thar say they aren't flinching can see it. Buy a quality scope with good eye relief and you should be able to tame your fear. I have broken a tooth before laying a 12 gauge turkey gun on the bench trying to pattern it with some really hot 3inch loads. Being the right height and position to shoot a gun comfortably makes a huge difference in recoil.
 
The second time I ever shot a centerfire rifle, it was a full magazine through a 458 Winchester Model 70 my uncle brought back from Alaska. Think I was 14.

Everything else has pretty much been gravy after that.
 
What is the average distance shot on game? I have personally only taken 2 shots over 300 yards, in maybe 20 hunting seasons, and at least 20 animals taken. Point being, if 1000 ft lbs of energy is suitable to kill deer and antelope, my 243 deer load is good to well over 400 yards in my area (4500-5500 ft above sealevel.) At 200 yards this load is still packing 1500 ft lbs. and at 300 the remaining energy is 1325 ft lbs. That is more than a 25-35 produces at the muzzle. With a decent bullet that will work fine on any deer in the state of Colorado. So being the stubborn old coot that I am it escapes me why a hunter NEEDS more gun. If you WANT more, heck, more power to ya (pun intended :D).
 
An 80 lb Georgia doe, shot from broadside out of a permanent stand at 50 yards...

...is a VASTLY different target than a 300+lb Montana buck quartering away through the timber at 120 yards...

...which is a VASTLY different target than any deer standing 400 yards across the prairie.

Out West he '06 and .270 as well as the 7mm magnum are favored because the penetration is sometimes needed for quartering shots on big deer (we seldom use stands), and their power and flat trajectories are needed to carry the mail over longer ranges.
These seasons also coincide with elk season, which no doubt influences some hunters as well. An '06 180gr is an excellent choice for both, but not so the .243 (possibly adequate, but not excellent).

For southern deer from a stand or over a feeder, the .223 wouldn't give me pause. In my mind the old 25-35 would be ideal under such conditions.
 
I don't think that the issue is felt recoil while hunting. I believe the issue is felt recoil while practicing. That does a couple of things. It conditions a flinch and it cuts down on practice.
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Well said, John.

Practice (and practical practice, at that!) is the single most important factor in making the shot at crunch time.
 
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