Militias = White Supremacists?
- Thread starter CarbineCaleb
- Start date
CarbineCaleb
New member
Trip: No, it wasn't known to me. In fact, right in my very first post, I say that. A lot of militia talk here - I started to search on militias, got all these white supremacy sites (big surprise for me), began to read their ideology, and saw virtually the same concepts, expressed in the same language that has bothered me here from some people - that's why I posted. So, I wanted to know - is this for real? And I also wanted to know, who among you here really thinks this way, step forward.
I am not so sure it's common knowledge for everyone else at TFL either - about 1/3 of the posts deny any such connection... and some defend those doing the perp walks, with again eerie echoes of ideology. I am not really going to bother to try to refute that. I could go on the Klan site, and someone there could deny they are racist, and no matter what I said, they could say I was lying, disinformed, brainwashed by the media, etc, etc, etc.... it never ends... just making me a little tired really. Many NeoNazis deny the Holocaust ever happened, and I am sure I could show them 1000 photos and books and articles - they'd just say they were fakes, I was lying, disinformed, how many Nazis did I really know - not really possible to win an arguement with someone like that. They are almost by definition deluded and fundamentally dishonest.
You don't need to tell me there are also good folks here - that is redundant. I said so myself. I am not a member of the Klan site, or the Stormfront site, I'll have you know.
You may want to read all of my posts in this thread... if you are going to judge me, I think you owe me that.
CarbineCaleb
New member
MicroBalrog:
If you check out the exchanges above that go on between myself and ATW525, as well as between myself and drinks, you will see that they are informing me about legitimate state militias which also exist in their states, and I am asking informational questions about those. There is no ire, there is no problem in those exchanges, just curiousity.
I don't really have a problem with the notion of militias per se - it's the notion of white supremacists and antigovernment revolutionaries who are arming themselves to in order to carry out their dark and twisted work - that, I have a big, big problem with. You will note the title of this thread is after all - are militias and white supremacists one and the same. And it looks like the answer is, yes and no - those relations do exist for some militias, but not all. So first I learned about some bad ones, and then I also learned here about some good ones.
If you check out the exchanges above that go on between myself and ATW525, as well as between myself and drinks, you will see that they are informing me about legitimate state militias which also exist in their states, and I am asking informational questions about those. There is no ire, there is no problem in those exchanges, just curiousity.
I don't really have a problem with the notion of militias per se - it's the notion of white supremacists and antigovernment revolutionaries who are arming themselves to in order to carry out their dark and twisted work - that, I have a big, big problem with. You will note the title of this thread is after all - are militias and white supremacists one and the same. And it looks like the answer is, yes and no - those relations do exist for some militias, but not all. So first I learned about some bad ones, and then I also learned here about some good ones.
CarbineCaleb
New member
Olde Massachussetts
Eghad: yep, I am actually in MA (can almost hear all the TFL'ers groan
)... the first wharf was put down in my city harbor in something like 1642. Today it looks like this:
There are still a few houses in the area that go back that far, and the old town, where I live, is made up almost entirely of houses built between 1800 and 1900, about evenly distributed in age.
Shipbuilding, and to a lesser extent, shipping trade were big in the early days. Privateers in my town - basically government sanctioned pirates, were deployed during the Revolution and during the war of 1812.
Like in so many American towns, the downtown commercial section, constructed of wood buildings, was destroyed by fire in the 19th century (1811). It was rebuilt in brick thereafter, and these buildings still stand, looking like this:
We still have the old Market Square, and the town green - like many towns in MA and CT... I kind of like that stuff.
So... that's probably more than you want to know
You guys have your Alamo - we have our Colonial stuff.
Eghad: yep, I am actually in MA (can almost hear all the TFL'ers groan
)... the first wharf was put down in my city harbor in something like 1642. Today it looks like this:
There are still a few houses in the area that go back that far, and the old town, where I live, is made up almost entirely of houses built between 1800 and 1900, about evenly distributed in age.
Shipbuilding, and to a lesser extent, shipping trade were big in the early days. Privateers in my town - basically government sanctioned pirates, were deployed during the Revolution and during the war of 1812.
Like in so many American towns, the downtown commercial section, constructed of wood buildings, was destroyed by fire in the 19th century (1811). It was rebuilt in brick thereafter, and these buildings still stand, looking like this:
We still have the old Market Square, and the town green - like many towns in MA and CT... I kind of like that stuff.
So... that's probably more than you want to know
You guys have your Alamo - we have our Colonial stuff.
Last edited:
CarbineCaleb
New member
Eghad: Here are some scenes from Lexington and Concord - these guys have historical militias there that do reenactments... they are actually quite fanatical... about the details of their costume, etc - have heard them argue what the proper underwear is to wear - I hear it's some scratchy woolies from eastern Europe that make them itch authentically! 
Have any Alamo pics???
Have any Alamo pics???
MicroBalrog
New member
I would note that "white supremacists" are one thing, "antigovernment revolutionaries" are another - not all of the antigovernment militias are violent in any was [cue Viper Militia].
I would also refer you to Vin Suprinowitch's coverage of this issue, in particular in his first book.
CarbineCaleb said:
Check out my one and only post on this thread, prior to this post. I never said there were good folks here
Likewise, I don't believe I accused, or even inferred you were a member of the Klan, or Stormfront. Not sure exactly why you made either comment above.
This is becoming a common occurence. I see this a lot in the "discussions" you choose to participate in. You often accuse people of not reading all of your posts, or your entire post. Maybe if your finding very often that it appears people are not grasping your concept - it's more your delivery than their comprehension.CarbineCaleb said:
By the first quote of yours in this post, it appears your guilty of the same thing you so readily accuse others for doing...
CarbineCaleb
New member
Trip20:
Yes, you misunderstood my post. And no, I don't believe I misunderstood yours. Let me explain. I was not saying that you were accusing me of being a Klan or a Stormfront member. I was making a point that didn't even involve you at all - you're not even in the sentence. The point was about me and TFL. My point was that I refuse to be a member of Stormfront or Klan (or other similar) forums because of what they are and who the other members are. I am however a member of TFL, so that is evidence of the fact that I am not thinking that TFL members = Klan members. Is that better?
You may be right that I am not communicating clearly enough here. I tend to have a style that sets up the postulates and lets the reader fill in the answer. Maybe that's only an invitation to misunderstanding, at least here on an internet forum, where people don't know me, and so don't know where I am coming from. They may not readily see what follows, or what I am getting at. I will try to be more clear and direct in the future.
P.S. For the record, even with my terrible style of communication, many people seem to understand me just fine, or at least, many people are writing in agreement (perhaps incorrectly? )
Yes, you misunderstood my post. And no, I don't believe I misunderstood yours. Let me explain. I was not saying that you were accusing me of being a Klan or a Stormfront member. I was making a point that didn't even involve you at all - you're not even in the sentence. The point was about me and TFL. My point was that I refuse to be a member of Stormfront or Klan (or other similar) forums because of what they are and who the other members are. I am however a member of TFL, so that is evidence of the fact that I am not thinking that TFL members = Klan members. Is that better?
You may be right that I am not communicating clearly enough here. I tend to have a style that sets up the postulates and lets the reader fill in the answer. Maybe that's only an invitation to misunderstanding, at least here on an internet forum, where people don't know me, and so don't know where I am coming from. They may not readily see what follows, or what I am getting at. I will try to be more clear and direct in the future.
P.S. For the record, even with my terrible style of communication, many people seem to understand me just fine, or at least, many people are writing in agreement (perhaps incorrectly?
)CarbineCaleb said:
You'll have to excuse me. I assumed since your post #42 started out your dialogue with a: "Trip20:", in bold as you see here. Silly me to think you were involving me.
Your absolutely correct. Postulates and open ended statements/questions are perfect when in a real-time discussion, they in fact challenge one another to think. But I agree, on an internet forum, in email, and with people who "do not know you" it's probably not the best method of discussion.CarbineCaleb said:
But, there are people who agree with you as you state. I found it funny how you put in parenthesis that they may be incorrectly doing so.
Seems like you enjoy stirring up the pot CC. Let me just clear up a misunderstanding. While I am SURE there are militias that are full of hate monger red neck nazi klansmen ninjas, there are also legitimate militias that serve their states, much as our founding fathers envisioned. And yes, they do train.
http://www.agd.state.tx.us/stateguard/
There's an example from my state.
As to the comprison between nazis and others, I am surprised the paralells between our own country and the years before and during hitler's rise to power were not discussed in detail.
Regards,
TX
http://www.agd.state.tx.us/stateguard/
There's an example from my state.
As to the comprison between nazis and others, I am surprised the paralells between our own country and the years before and during hitler's rise to power were not discussed in detail.
Regards,
TX
Capt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
I personally have nothing against militias in general, but ya know, there ARE militias out there made up of red neck Nazi Klan ninjas, and just like police depts., a few make all look bad. Police your own if you want credibility and respect.
Jack Malloy
New member
Most "militias" are just redneck rod and gun clubs.
The focus you see in the "mainstream" mass media (which is actually the lunatic fringe of the extreme left wing of our society) is all about demonizing regular law abiding gun owners.
The tactic is simple. The media shows the Sheeple that all gun owners are basically like those nasty Militia whackos, there fore all gun owners are evil militia whackos too, Nasty ole anti semites and neo nazis to a man.
You never see the socker mom gun owners by the way. Or the Jewish rabbi who survived the nazi death camps and has a CCW permit, or the Catholic priest known as Padre Pistola. Just a demonized view of the "evil gun owner."
The sheeple then get the message. Gun owners are all a pack of dangerous unstable whackos who need to be disarmed!
For every media story about a nutty militiaman or klansman with a gun or bomb you look around you can find legit news stories about corrupt police officers with guns and bombs too. Does that mean that all police officers should be disarmed?
I don't think so.
Its all about spreading the blame around and not focusing on making bad people responsible for their own actions.
Fortunately many people are too smart to fall for this Bull$#!* and the Feds and the media wound up with Egg on their Faces on Sept. 11 when, after years and years and years of the Reno Justice Dept. proclaiming that "White Christian Militiamen" were the biggest threat to society low and behold a pack of Islamiacs were responsible for the biggest terorrist act in our nation's history.
The focus you see in the "mainstream" mass media (which is actually the lunatic fringe of the extreme left wing of our society) is all about demonizing regular law abiding gun owners.
The tactic is simple. The media shows the Sheeple that all gun owners are basically like those nasty Militia whackos, there fore all gun owners are evil militia whackos too, Nasty ole anti semites and neo nazis to a man.
You never see the socker mom gun owners by the way. Or the Jewish rabbi who survived the nazi death camps and has a CCW permit, or the Catholic priest known as Padre Pistola. Just a demonized view of the "evil gun owner."
The sheeple then get the message. Gun owners are all a pack of dangerous unstable whackos who need to be disarmed!
For every media story about a nutty militiaman or klansman with a gun or bomb you look around you can find legit news stories about corrupt police officers with guns and bombs too. Does that mean that all police officers should be disarmed?
I don't think so.
Its all about spreading the blame around and not focusing on making bad people responsible for their own actions.
Fortunately many people are too smart to fall for this Bull$#!* and the Feds and the media wound up with Egg on their Faces on Sept. 11 when, after years and years and years of the Reno Justice Dept. proclaiming that "White Christian Militiamen" were the biggest threat to society low and behold a pack of Islamiacs were responsible for the biggest terorrist act in our nation's history.
Edison Carter
New member
Handy said:
Handy, I am not a "militia-man", don't know any, don't have much interest
in the so called militias. I'm not so much a joiner of anything, usually.
I have however seen Marxists, Liberals, many outlets of the "mainstream media", Democrats, the Antidefamation League, the ACLU denounce virtually anything and everything as racist.
The NRA is called racist, Vdare.com is called racist, Gunowners of America is
called racist, the Republican Party is called racist, Fox News is called racist.
And for the irony impaired; MEChA: a Mexican Marxist Organization dedicated to
"RECONQUISTA", seizing of the US Southwest by illegal colonization and returning it to Mexican dominion, whose motto is "For the RACE, everything, for those outside the race, NOTHING".
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=3531
denounces the MINUTEMEN project and any LAWFUL effort of US citizens or the
US government to defend the borders and enforce immigration laws as .....
are you ready?.... RACIST!!
Are the minutemen a "militia"? I don't know if anyone there is calling themselves
a commander or a general. I don't know if they have anything really constituting
a "military structure" (like the Boy scouts?)
They sat on private proprty, (by invitation) or on public lands, (by right)
often armed, (according to Arizona law) and called the Border Patrol when
they spotted illegal border crossers.
Racist? Outlaws? Vigilantes?
If that is vigilantism, and a bad thing, then you have no business calling the police when a burglar breaks into your house.
The word RACIST has lost any meaning other than as a Club with which to shut down political debate. To issue the accusation of racism is to attempt the rhetorical lynching of one's political opponent.
In modern America it is racist to have an all white Fraternity, it is NOT racist to have an all black fraternity.
It is not racist to have African American social, and professional associations,
it IS racist to have an all WHITE social or professional association.
It is racist to exclude a black student to a University with poor grades,
it is NOT racist to exclude a white or asian student with GOOD grades.
It is racist for the US to defend it's borders, and ensure that it's citizens
have the piority in decently paying employment,
it is NOT racist for Mexico to deploy the army on their southern border,
and prosecute Guatemalans, and Hondurans when they are found in Mexico illegally.
Before we discuss "racist militias" you explain racism in america in any sane,
consistent, logical way we can all agree on.
I don't CARE about these so called "racist militias", because I believe history
has shown that either they are composed of 5 fools in a trailer with a website, or if they were any real threat they were infiltrated by the FBI and
prosecuted. I fully expect that ANY militia, racist or not, of any size has
always been infiltrated and observed.
The Militia "movement" gained steam with WACO and was pretty much shut down after US Army soldier McVeigh was "captured" and prosecuted for the
OKC bombing. The Government was successful in portraying ALL "militias"
as dangerous, violent crazies, and christians, homeschoolers, and gunowners
not far behind.
But let's do the research to find out the facts.
Can we find five so called militias whose documented principles basically
amount to "I hate those ________ people and I will work and train and
break the law to do them harm"? I imagine we can
Can we find five so called militias whose documented principles are for truth,
justice, supporting and defending the Constitution, rescuing kittens out of trees
and emphatically opposed to racism and prejudice? Again I imagine we can.
Next let's tally the dues paying members.
Will all five of the highest profile groups have, say, 500 members, each?
Let's do it again, 10 of both categories, 300 members each.
One more time, 20 of both categories, 100 members each.
I think we'll get real slim pickings... and more good guys than bad guys.
I have heard that police believe that there are more than 100,000
gang members in California alone, and I doubt that you are even factoring
them in your definition of "militia"
Let's count numbers from the FBI of homicides. How many convictions
of Hispanic or Black gang members...
And how many convictions of white "militia" members who answer to a
militia commander and practice in manouvers with weapons.
If we aren't talking murderous organizations, why are we even excited?
From 1995 to 2000, Janet Reno and the entire Justice department would
have LOVED to hammer some well organized, home-grown, racist,
neo-nazi, KKK, right wing, gun nut terrorists to parade before the cameras.
Did you ever see such?
EC
Edison,
I think the point you're kind of missing here is that the militias in question would call THEMSELVES racist, and make no bones about it.
"Racist" is often thrown around rather inappropriately, but the groups we're talking about wear the term with pride.
Concern about them need not come from their potential for violence, but just concern about that many sociopaths are in a support group.
I think the point you're kind of missing here is that the militias in question would call THEMSELVES racist, and make no bones about it.
"Racist" is often thrown around rather inappropriately, but the groups we're talking about wear the term with pride.
Concern about them need not come from their potential for violence, but just concern about that many sociopaths are in a support group.
Edison Carter
New member
Not missing that point at all.
The hand-wringers have been whining about racist militias for 10 years.
The alarmists have been telling us these racist militias are large, numerous,
and dangerous.
Panic pimps have thereby attempted to paint every white, christian,
gun-owner as a racist terrorist.
I, and I suspect almost every other person reading this, have lost a plurality of
friends who dismissed me as a friend, as a right wing, gun owning, militia
TYPE without having any discussion of what I do or what I think,
based solely on the crap people see on TV, and in print MSM.
I have been called a racist militia nut for going to the shooting range.
I have been called a racist militia nut for voting Libertarian.
I have been called a racist militia nut for owning a semi-auto rifle.
I have been called a racist militia nut for favoring enforcement of immigration laws.
So to put it short and sweet....
SHOW ME THE RACIST MILITIA.
Who are they?
Where are they?
How many said sociopaths are there?
Show me 10 different groups of 50 crazies.
EC
The hand-wringers have been whining about racist militias for 10 years.
The alarmists have been telling us these racist militias are large, numerous,
and dangerous.
Panic pimps have thereby attempted to paint every white, christian,
gun-owner as a racist terrorist.
I, and I suspect almost every other person reading this, have lost a plurality of
friends who dismissed me as a friend, as a right wing, gun owning, militia
TYPE without having any discussion of what I do or what I think,
based solely on the crap people see on TV, and in print MSM.
I have been called a racist militia nut for going to the shooting range.
I have been called a racist militia nut for voting Libertarian.
I have been called a racist militia nut for owning a semi-auto rifle.
I have been called a racist militia nut for favoring enforcement of immigration laws.
So to put it short and sweet....
SHOW ME THE RACIST MILITIA.
Who are they?
Where are they?
How many said sociopaths are there?
Show me 10 different groups of 50 crazies.
EC
Well, I've certainly never lost friends for being a shooter. I have gotten non-shooters interested because of friendships, though. In fact, I really have never heard of much of anyone on this board stating they have lost friends due to firearms ownership. So I'm unsure about this "plurality" you mention.
I'm not sure I understand your last request. Certainly, Stormfront and the Klan (who just put on quite a show in Norfolk) exist. But I've never seen the claims you say some people make about the size and danger of white militias. Could you post links to such rhetoric?
I'm not sure I understand your last request. Certainly, Stormfront and the Klan (who just put on quite a show in Norfolk) exist. But I've never seen the claims you say some people make about the size and danger of white militias. Could you post links to such rhetoric?
Militias & White Supremacists
I dunno, guess the hitch in the Texas National Guard so long ago and the hitch in the Marine Corps also long ago worked all the jungle bunny out of my system. Don't like to sleep on rocky ground, despise extreme heat and cold,
didn't enjoy frozen charlie rations, nor Sergeants with bad breath up close in my face. I wasn't big on the old M1 rifle, liked the 03 better but they were considered obsolete and we had none. I did love to fire the BAR but not carrying the heavy bugger.
I would consider being a militiaman in fighting off foreign invaders and enemies of the United States but I am a bit
down the road it seems. Long in the tooth if you get the drift. I love Texas and the US!
I dunno, guess the hitch in the Texas National Guard so long ago and the hitch in the Marine Corps also long ago worked all the jungle bunny out of my system. Don't like to sleep on rocky ground, despise extreme heat and cold,
didn't enjoy frozen charlie rations, nor Sergeants with bad breath up close in my face. I wasn't big on the old M1 rifle, liked the 03 better but they were considered obsolete and we had none. I did love to fire the BAR but not carrying the heavy bugger.
I would consider being a militiaman in fighting off foreign invaders and enemies of the United States but I am a bit
down the road it seems. Long in the tooth if you get the drift. I love Texas and the US!
Edison Carter
New member
I mentioned my own experience.
If you have not lost friends as you developed an interest in firearms, then
I'm glad for you. I doubt that am the only one, in a group this large to
have that experience.
You've never seen claims about size and danger of white militias?
Well then what is all this noise ABOUT?
http://www.adl.org/mwd/default.asp
http://www.rickross.com/reference/militia/militia46.html
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=64
You mention the Klan and Stormfront.
I see Stormfront has a website. big deal. Discussion, talk.
Not legally actionable in this country.
You don't like it, grow a thick skin.
You brought up the Klan. The Klan had 4 million members in 1928,
was officially disbanded in 1944, and has been disorganized small groups
with no central command ever since. The "Klan" supposedly has up to 6,000
serious members, distributed over 158 chapters. I'm not impressed.
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Ku-Klux-Klan
I remember seeing the Nazis marching in Skokie, IL. I don't think they ever
managed to muster more than 20 or so nazis. They were confronted
by hundreds of people ready to lynch them.
To call any of these hate groups a "militia" is practically delusional.
The Southern Poverty Law Center accuses all sorts of groups as
"racist hate groups".
Their proclamation does not make it so.
The SPLC and the ADL seem to alternately whip up hysteria about the
disturbing INCREASING trend of "hate groups", (SEND MONEY!)
and self congratulatory blather of how their programs are successful in
arrests, prosecutions, and reduction in membership of those hate groups.
(SEND MORE MONEY!)
Refer to the very first post in this thread where CarbineCaleb basically
pronounced various racist distortions of very real issues as being evidence
of racism among TFL posters. In a backhanded, dishonest, snotty way,
he implied that TFL as being a haven for Nazis, Klanners and their ilk.
One hundred posters could deny it, and one could post something which
could be construed as "insensitive" and Gotcha! the charge of racism is
deemed by some as being substantiated.
I'm tired of the "GOTCHA!.... You are A RACIST, now bend
down and submit to my political demands to cleanse yourself
of your racial shame!"
Na UH. not me.
EC
If you have not lost friends as you developed an interest in firearms, then
I'm glad for you. I doubt that am the only one, in a group this large to
have that experience.
You've never seen claims about size and danger of white militias?
Well then what is all this noise ABOUT?
http://www.adl.org/mwd/default.asp
http://www.rickross.com/reference/militia/militia46.html
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=64
You mention the Klan and Stormfront.
I see Stormfront has a website. big deal. Discussion, talk.
Not legally actionable in this country.
You don't like it, grow a thick skin.
You brought up the Klan. The Klan had 4 million members in 1928,
was officially disbanded in 1944, and has been disorganized small groups
with no central command ever since. The "Klan" supposedly has up to 6,000
serious members, distributed over 158 chapters. I'm not impressed.
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Ku-Klux-Klan
I remember seeing the Nazis marching in Skokie, IL. I don't think they ever
managed to muster more than 20 or so nazis. They were confronted
by hundreds of people ready to lynch them.
To call any of these hate groups a "militia" is practically delusional.
The Southern Poverty Law Center accuses all sorts of groups as
"racist hate groups".
Their proclamation does not make it so.
The SPLC and the ADL seem to alternately whip up hysteria about the
disturbing INCREASING trend of "hate groups", (SEND MONEY!)
and self congratulatory blather of how their programs are successful in
arrests, prosecutions, and reduction in membership of those hate groups.
(SEND MORE MONEY!)
Refer to the very first post in this thread where CarbineCaleb basically
pronounced various racist distortions of very real issues as being evidence
of racism among TFL posters. In a backhanded, dishonest, snotty way,
he implied that TFL as being a haven for Nazis, Klanners and their ilk.
One hundred posters could deny it, and one could post something which
could be construed as "insensitive" and Gotcha! the charge of racism is
deemed by some as being substantiated.
I'm tired of the "GOTCHA!.... You are A RACIST, now bend
down and submit to my political demands to cleanse yourself
of your racial shame!"
Na UH. not me.
EC
I honestly have no idea what you are upset about. White militias are bad, which is why most of us go out of our way to say so. But you are the first person I've ever encountered that makes a major issue of a drawn connection between them and other gun owners. Certainly, some fringe people might make such claims, but they make many stupid claims - none of which have impact.
The point of this thread has been that when militias exist, in whatever small number, they are almost universally racially motivated. And that seems to be true. If you're certain they don't even exist, well that's a load off.
The point of this thread has been that when militias exist, in whatever small number, they are almost universally racially motivated. And that seems to be true. If you're certain they don't even exist, well that's a load off.