Martial arts tailored to modern carry?

Those of you who think in your next fight you are going to "slip a takedown", draw your gun and end the fight and therefore have no need to know what to do when the fight goes hands on and to the ground do not know what you do not know. Good luck with that.
 
zombieslayer: It seems like we agree on a lot of things when it comes to the use of grappling in self defense. As for being in a judo or jiu-jitsu school/dojo/school, I've been training for years at a very good submission grappling/jiu-jitsu school. Before that I've trained muay thai, boxing, judo, aikido and wrestling. I know what it's like to move resisting bodies around.

If it's too my advantage to take the fight to the ground, I want the ability to make that happen. Fighting off your back is bad in a self defense scenario 75% of the time. However, making someone else fight off their back is a good thing. Being able to dictate the where the fighting occurs is a huge advantage. Like we both seem to agree, control is the key too grappling.
 
redstategunnut said:
Those of you who think in your next fight you are going to "slip a takedown", draw your gun and end the fight and therefore have no need to know what to do when the fight goes hands on and to the ground do not know what you do not know. Good luck with that.
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I never said that should be the case, and neither did anyone else. My point is that you shouldn't want to fight on the ground. Sure, if you get there you should know how to defend yourself but you shouldn't WANT to be there. You shouldn't take it there yourself. If you are fighting on the ground and have the training to do so, why wouldn't you just do what you need to get up into a safer position? And yeah, anyone doing what you said would be drawing a gun on someone who hasn't posed a lethal threat.

It seems people don't understand me when I say it's better to get out of the situation as best as possible without spending your time tied up with an opponent who may have friends, a knife, or for all you know MMA training.
 
zombieslayer said:
Well... If you're fighting an attacker/opponent and you dont have your weapon, wouldnt breaking his arm be a great advantage? If im fighting anyone Im going to inflict as much trauma as physically possible. Eyes can be gouged, groins crushed, bones broken, etc. All great ways of causing your attacker to rethink his actions. Defending ones self is ones own responsibility. How much time and effort goes into training and physical fitness is up to the individual. Breaking an arm or even leg isnt any different than shooting. Youre trying to stop a deadly or dangerous threat or action.
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While I can agree with causing the most trauma as possible, breaking an arm may happen slower than some expect. Yes, the martial arts teach you the best ways to do so, and often the fastest, but something like that shouldn't be planned. You focus on that and he may turn into you with a knife. If you end up with the option, and can do so effectively, I don't see a problem with it, but I would rather be on my feet.
 
I just don't understand why people think knowing how to break someones arm while wrestling on the ground is going to help them.
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Um, because if the fight you are in goes to the ground, it does help to know what to do once you are there.

Make no mistake: if you are on the ground in a fight, a lot of better options have been missed/passed over/denied. But the fight is what the fight is. If I have to break a man's arm or choke him out to win the fight that I'm in, then that is what I'm going to do and I am glad that I know how to do it.
 
Very good points. Though I believe this thread has derived a bit much.

Yeah, I watched a friend break a guys arm over his shoulder once, which I felt bad about later because he didn't quite deserve that much and I know my friend did it on instinct and not fully intending to break it.
 
I'm finding a lot of weapon retention techniques that seem ok, but I still don't see anyone truly putting it all together with citizen carry in mind. Maybe I'll just have to talk to some friends and coaches to see if they have suggestions.
 
Any weapon retention techniques I have tried to come up with go off of fairly simple concepts. But mostly have open carry in mind.

Never let their hands go up when the reach for your weapon. In other words, push their hands down, not up to break the grip. Makes sense.

Their left hand can grab the gun better from the front, the right hand grabs better from the back, plan for both one and two handed grab defenses that don't require a lot of specifics and work for both left and right hand grabs from behind or front.

If you have a knife, and can access it quickly, use it. Most of what I practice for retention uses a knife. If you notice, some videos show a lot of struggle, and a lot of pushing and pulling, I see this and have to wonder how often the opponent gets the gun and the defender gets a hold of the barrel as it comes out of the holster. I don't know, because I'm fairly new at this part.
 
I'm thinking of a few things that might enhance some of the retention techniques I've seen. I see opportunities for some trips and use of balance, beyond what I have seen so far.

I haven't seen every retention technique, but I'm not finding much retention work concealed carry. I see a ton of stuff tailored to police.
 
Martial arts tailored to modern carry?
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Personally I'd train in both a good marital art AND combat shooting. Make them your hobbies. Then over time you will integrate them yourself.

Take Krav Maga and maybe a good Hapkido school and then IDPA and IPSC for hobbies as well as a few good shooting schools.

Then over time you will see what matters.

Deaf
 
Irish52084,

I was on a course taught by Avi about two months ago and found his instruction to be illuminating. As for all of these allegations of falsehood, he never said anything about the Yamam, or operational duty. He did say he instructed police and special forces operators, but didn't lay claim to being one himself. I really liked the guy and regardless of what has been posted on the web, I would want this guy in my corner!

The syllabus was effectively taught and is effective.

Also, I should have checked before suggesting anybody look it up on the web! Live and learn.

Regardless, I would say if you have a chance to learn from Avi, do it. Worth every penny.
 
I am going to take a stab (pardon the pun) at expressing my mindset on this. I am not an expert, and I won't claim to be. This is just an attempt to express my mindset.

Somewhere along my travels, I came across the concept of "threat zones." My thoughts employ this concept.

Zone A: Torso to torso contact. This is the groundfighting / grappling zone (though not necessarily on the ground). Short, fast strikes, like throat grabs and eye gouges work best here, as do blood and air chokes. Edged weapons are especially dangerous here as you are "too close" to see them until it is too late.

Zone B: Well within grasp. You can reach them with an elbow stike. Elbow, knee, and palm strikes work best here. You may or may not be "clenched" so grappling still works here, but this is primarily a "striking" zone. Edged weapons rule the roost. Pistols work, as can close combat with rifle or shotgun.

Zone C: Arm/ leg length away. This is the long punch and kick zone. Firearms may also work here as do edged weapons. This is the a transitional zone, where you are either moving into their B zone or trying to push them into your D zone.

Zone D: The moving in/ moving out zone. You are not in contact and you have to move in to make contact. This is the primary handgun zone. Some might call it 'spitting distance.' Again this is a transition zone, hence the "moving in/ moving out" moniker. Bayonets shine here.

Zone E: Target ID is easy (close visual range) but actual physical contact is not emminent. This is the convention "handgun zone" in most people's mindset. Shotguns and rifles start to become better options. This is the 7 to 50 yard zone.

Zone F: Target ID is possible, but more difficult. Shotguns without chokes are not as effective. Handguns are largely useless (to the average shooter/ BG) except as a deterrent. Slug equipped shotguns and rifles rule the roost. Pistols are a "trained operator" threat only, besides a "lucky shot." 50-200 yards.

Zone G: Target ID is very hard without optics. Rifles are the only viable option. Optics make target ID much easier. Depending on shooter and rifle this can extend to a half mile and beyond.

Zone H: Out of range. Threats are not within a range that they can be positively IDed as such. Alert, but not engaged... unless you are a mortarman or artilleryman. :eek:

This is just MY framework. It acts as a 'training guide' for me as I ponder and practice transitions to and from these "zones." It highlights why I believe no weapon is the "end all, be all," and illistrates why I believe a well-rounded approach is best. As I said at the start... I am no expert... this is just MY thoughts, born out of MY experience.

P.S. If you find fault in my reasoning, please let me know. I am always ready and willing to learn better ways to defend myself and my loved ones.
 
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Another vote for Krav Maga. In our school (not sure how prevalent this is in other schools) to advance past levels 4 and above, they begin to work in CCW practice, firing range work, weapons (of all sorts) work, including using, disarming, unloading and making safe, etc. I love that concept and they are very open about when do you tactically, safely and legally go from hands to mechanical.

Krav Maga was, and is, designed to be used by the armed citizen. Think about it's origins and it's uses today in Israel.

Good luck and look for a good school. If you need thought on that, PM me and we can discuss. There are schools, there are good schools and there are schools put there that many people refer to as the "Wal-Mart" of Krav.
 
Krav Maga get my vote as well and Im looking into it. Heres something I practice regularly and dont know if you guys do. As someone said SD distances could be very close. I practice drawing my 1911 and putting my left arm in front of my neck/lower face, as I do this I fire into the gut area of the target. I have gotten pretty good at this and am now hip shooting a decent group at 20ft. (nothing spectacular but pretty decent). I saw this in a combat handgunnery edition I have.
 
I really like the threat zone breakdown. I think it's pretty well thought out.

I have some serious doubts about krav maga, but I might have to give it a try. I have an acquaintance who speaks highly of krav maga and really enjoys it. My other issue, is the only krav maga school nearby me is pretty much known as a "McDojo", they try to claim they teach mma by showing dvd's. It's really sad.
 
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