manual safety is unnecessary?
- Thread starter breakthrough
- Start date
- Status
OldMarksman
Staff
Posted by AK103K:
I think that's the way it should be.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Unfortunately, muscle memory is a process that entails retrieving the motor program and implementing it.
This can be interfered with by stress. It is thought about and studied in athletic freezes. When someone can't make an easy foul shot or the like.
The person under stress may try to cognitively control the motor response which should run on an unconscious level. The conscious control commands and the 'automatic' clash and performance fails.
In the safety sense, the person is ready for a stage, they are planning the draw and firing. The focus is on the sights on target and trigger. Thus, they are trying to do this as quickly as possible. The safety doesn't enter into the response stream and clashes with automatic response.
Muscle memory is launched from higher centers. The program is stored subcortically but it can be blocked if conscious motor control launches another stream.
This can be interfered with by stress. It is thought about and studied in athletic freezes. When someone can't make an easy foul shot or the like.
The person under stress may try to cognitively control the motor response which should run on an unconscious level. The conscious control commands and the 'automatic' clash and performance fails.
In the safety sense, the person is ready for a stage, they are planning the draw and firing. The focus is on the sights on target and trigger. Thus, they are trying to do this as quickly as possible. The safety doesn't enter into the response stream and clashes with automatic response.
Muscle memory is launched from higher centers. The program is stored subcortically but it can be blocked if conscious motor control launches another stream.
So does all that mean the average Joe, who doesnt practice at all, is doomed? 
Or is it all of us?
As much as that all sounded official (I think), somehow, every time I ever drew my 1911 (under simulated stress), the safety was always off, and it was shooting where I was looking (for the most part), when it came to bear. Same thing seems to happen with my Glocks too. I would think that after a bazillion presentations, muscle memory is there and the subconscious takes control. At least thats how it seems to work for me.
Or, have we all just been wasting our time?
Or is it all of us?
As much as that all sounded official (I think
), somehow, every time I ever drew my 1911 (under simulated stress), the safety was always off, and it was shooting where I was looking (for the most part), when it came to bear. Same thing seems to happen with my Glocks too. I would think that after a bazillion presentations, muscle memory is there and the subconscious takes control. At least thats how it seems to work for me.Or, have we all just been wasting our time?
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Uh - I think I explained what happens to some. Why do athletes who do zillions of repetitions choke? I told you.
Deaf Smith
New member
So how does one prove they didn't remember, or did remember they didn't do it, could not remember they didn't do it or if it happened? I mean is this some kind of joke?
Kind of hard to prove a negative.
Could be almost no one to. So? Just diligently practice KYFFOTFT, even in FOF, and no doubt it will be ingrained in one's response. If the fellow does not want to train to be that way then tough luck.
You mean you don't remember? Careful, you might touch that trigger!
Well I ain't the 'average' Joe and I really don't give a farthing what the 'average Joe' can or cannot do. I am ONLY concerned with what I can, or cannot do.
And that is why I don't dictate what others carry nor how they training. You takes your pick and pays your price.
Yes it's called an ingrained reflex. Happens all the time. Notice when, after years of driving a car, you subconsciously hit the breaks when a situation arises. Also note you KYFFOTFA (keep your freaking foot of the freaking accelerator.) Notice experienced drivers do not press on their accelerator unless they want the car to go.
Deaf
Cheapshooter
New member
Splains the almost daily news story of a car driving through the front window of a store, or into a house because the driver hit the gas instead of the brake. Most often very "experienced" drivers.
Guess their "ingrainde" reflex got "inbred" with confusion!
Limnophile
New member
Here is a summary of Heim, et al., 2006:
Hum Factors. 2006 Fall;48(3):413-21.
The risk of involuntary firearms discharge.
Heim C1, Schmidtbleicher D, Niebergall E.
Author information
1Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universität Frankfurt, Institute of Sports Science, Frankfurt, Germany. c.heim@sport.uni-frankfurt.de
Abstract
OBJECTIVES:
To investigate whether unintended muscle activity induced by motor overflow can result in the unintentional discharge of a firearm.
BACKGROUND:
In the past few years an increasing number of people have been injured, sometimes fatally, as a result of police weapons being discharged involuntarily.
METHODS:
Two experiments were performed using a pistol fitted with sensors to register the pressure exerted on the hand stock and the trigger. In Study 1, 34 police officers reacted to a set case using the prepared pistol. In Study 2, 25 participants performed 13 tasks requiring the use of different limbs.
RESULTS:
In Study 1, about 20% of participating officers made contact with the trigger, thus violating police regulations to keep the trigger finger outside the trigger guard at all times until a conscious decision to fire has been made. Study 2 showed that motor activity in different limbs leads to a significant increase in grip force exerted on a firearm (significant results for 12 of 13 trials, Bonferroni-corrected p < .004). Furthermore, pressure on the trigger resulting from involuntary muscle contractions was, in certain cases, sufficient to unintentionally discharge a weapon.
CONCLUSION:
Unintentional discharges attributable to involuntary muscle activity can be a real danger for police officers when carrying out their duties.
APPLICATION:
Results may help improve police training with the aim of reducing the danger of involuntary discharges in real-life situations.
*****
Science tells us that Deaf Smith could be a trigger toucher and not even know it.
44 AMP,
The Army's specification for a .45 Auto pistol required a safety, and the Colt M1905, their initial submission, had the grip safety. The Army conducted extensive field trials with the prototypes, and some refined prototypes were built and tested. It wasn't until the M1910 that the Army told Colt and Browning to add the thumb safety lock. Some M1910s were fitted with the required safety lock, and the resulting pistol, with a few additional minor changes, became the M1911.
The reason the Army wanted the thumb safety was so cavalry could safely reholster while on a galloping horse. While one can safely reholster with just a grip safety, doing so requires fine motor skills that are likely unavailable when atop a spirited steed. Activating a thumb safety is much safer.
Hum Factors. 2006 Fall;48(3):413-21.
The risk of involuntary firearms discharge.
Heim C1, Schmidtbleicher D, Niebergall E.
Author information
1Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universität Frankfurt, Institute of Sports Science, Frankfurt, Germany. c.heim@sport.uni-frankfurt.de
Abstract
OBJECTIVES:
To investigate whether unintended muscle activity induced by motor overflow can result in the unintentional discharge of a firearm.
BACKGROUND:
In the past few years an increasing number of people have been injured, sometimes fatally, as a result of police weapons being discharged involuntarily.
METHODS:
Two experiments were performed using a pistol fitted with sensors to register the pressure exerted on the hand stock and the trigger. In Study 1, 34 police officers reacted to a set case using the prepared pistol. In Study 2, 25 participants performed 13 tasks requiring the use of different limbs.
RESULTS:
In Study 1, about 20% of participating officers made contact with the trigger, thus violating police regulations to keep the trigger finger outside the trigger guard at all times until a conscious decision to fire has been made. Study 2 showed that motor activity in different limbs leads to a significant increase in grip force exerted on a firearm (significant results for 12 of 13 trials, Bonferroni-corrected p < .004). Furthermore, pressure on the trigger resulting from involuntary muscle contractions was, in certain cases, sufficient to unintentionally discharge a weapon.
CONCLUSION:
Unintentional discharges attributable to involuntary muscle activity can be a real danger for police officers when carrying out their duties.
APPLICATION:
Results may help improve police training with the aim of reducing the danger of involuntary discharges in real-life situations.
*****
Science tells us that Deaf Smith could be a trigger toucher and not even know it.
44 AMP,
The Army's specification for a .45 Auto pistol required a safety, and the Colt M1905, their initial submission, had the grip safety. The Army conducted extensive field trials with the prototypes, and some refined prototypes were built and tested. It wasn't until the M1910 that the Army told Colt and Browning to add the thumb safety lock. Some M1910s were fitted with the required safety lock, and the resulting pistol, with a few additional minor changes, became the M1911.
The reason the Army wanted the thumb safety was so cavalry could safely reholster while on a galloping horse. While one can safely reholster with just a grip safety, doing so requires fine motor skills that are likely unavailable when atop a spirited steed. Activating a thumb safety is much safer.
Last edited:
Limnophile
New member
^As I recall, during the second experiment, sometimes pressure was enough (> 12 lb) to activate a DA trigger. But, yes, a DAO handgun with a heavy and long pull is perhaps the safest option. However, a SAO semiauto would also be safer if the safety is activated before engaging in the tasks that resulted in motor overflow.
I don't think any of the inadvertent trigger touching in the first experiment resulted in any NDs. But, the simulation must have been quite stressful, because one of the participants chose to deliberately open fire.
I doubt most here, except those who have served in military or police combat, have encountered that level of stress with a firearm in hand. Same with the multitasking experiment. Most gunowners aren't performing another task while handling their weapon at the ready.
It's nice that science got around to demonstrating the prevalence of stray trigger finger through empiricism. I give the Army figuring it out a century ago with field trials that were likely conducted haphazardly.
I don't think any of the inadvertent trigger touching in the first experiment resulted in any NDs. But, the simulation must have been quite stressful, because one of the participants chose to deliberately open fire.
I doubt most here, except those who have served in military or police combat, have encountered that level of stress with a firearm in hand. Same with the multitasking experiment. Most gunowners aren't performing another task while handling their weapon at the ready.
It's nice that science got around to demonstrating the prevalence of stray trigger finger through empiricism. I give the Army figuring it out a century ago with field trials that were likely conducted haphazardly.
Last edited:
Limnophile
New member
^The first such study, also published last decade, was done by a Colorado U prof by the name of Enoka. His work resulted in police agencies training an officer to keep his trigger finger outside the triggerguard until he intended to fire. Prior to that, some departments taught their officers to stage their triggers, as a way to try to compensate for long and heavy DA triggers.
Here's the abstract for another Heim et al. paper on the subject:
Title: Towards an Understanding of Involuntary Firearms Discharges: Possible Risks and Implications for Training
Author(s): Christopher Heim ; Dietmar Schmidtbleicher ; Eckhard Niebergall
Journal: Policing: An International Journal of Police Strategies & Management Volume:29 Issue:3 Dated:2006 Pages:434 to 450
Date Published: 2006
Page Count: 17
Annotation: This study identified environmental and physiological factors that might interact to cause accidental discharges of firearms, and it suggests how police officers could be trained to prevent such incidents.
Abstract: Generally, the findings indicated that leg movement produced greater potential for involuntary discharges from uncontrolled and unintended muscle activity than movements of the arm not holding the gun (contralateral arm). Findings showed that more forceful leg movements brought a progressively higher risk for the unintentional discharge of a firearm. For movements that involved the use of the contralateral arm, results showed a tendency for higher forces to be exerted on a weapon during pulling than during pushing movements. The authors argue that training officers to keep their finger off the trigger until they make the conscious decision to fire their weapon is not sufficient to prevent an involuntary placement of the finger on the trigger. They advocate training in isolated movements (moving one part of the body while the rest of the body is kept still), which has been shown to reduce unwanted involuntary muscle contractions. Such training over the course of a year should reduce unwanted involuntary muscle contractions. The study involved fitting a 9 mm handgun with sensors to register the pressure exerted on both the hand-stock and the trigger. Participants then performed 13 different tasks, each of which required the use of different limbs while holding the weapon. Participants were 25 students (13 females) between the ages of 21 and 39. Four men had experience in handling a gun. Twelve participants had been regular participants in team sports. Seven of the participants had pursued compositional sports such as ballet dancing, rhythmic sports gymnastics, and jazz dance. 3 tables, 3 figures, and 43 references
Here's the abstract for another Heim et al. paper on the subject:
Title: Towards an Understanding of Involuntary Firearms Discharges: Possible Risks and Implications for Training
Author(s): Christopher Heim ; Dietmar Schmidtbleicher ; Eckhard Niebergall
Journal: Policing: An International Journal of Police Strategies & Management Volume:29 Issue:3 Dated:2006 Pages:434 to 450
Date Published: 2006
Page Count: 17
Annotation: This study identified environmental and physiological factors that might interact to cause accidental discharges of firearms, and it suggests how police officers could be trained to prevent such incidents.
Abstract: Generally, the findings indicated that leg movement produced greater potential for involuntary discharges from uncontrolled and unintended muscle activity than movements of the arm not holding the gun (contralateral arm). Findings showed that more forceful leg movements brought a progressively higher risk for the unintentional discharge of a firearm. For movements that involved the use of the contralateral arm, results showed a tendency for higher forces to be exerted on a weapon during pulling than during pushing movements. The authors argue that training officers to keep their finger off the trigger until they make the conscious decision to fire their weapon is not sufficient to prevent an involuntary placement of the finger on the trigger. They advocate training in isolated movements (moving one part of the body while the rest of the body is kept still), which has been shown to reduce unwanted involuntary muscle contractions. Such training over the course of a year should reduce unwanted involuntary muscle contractions. The study involved fitting a 9 mm handgun with sensors to register the pressure exerted on both the hand-stock and the trigger. Participants then performed 13 different tasks, each of which required the use of different limbs while holding the weapon. Participants were 25 students (13 females) between the ages of 21 and 39. Four men had experience in handling a gun. Twelve participants had been regular participants in team sports. Seven of the participants had pursued compositional sports such as ballet dancing, rhythmic sports gymnastics, and jazz dance. 3 tables, 3 figures, and 43 references
Last edited:
Deaf Smith
New member
No, they are most always elderly people that confuse the breaks with the gas pedal. A few are just drunks.
Deaf
I would like to point out that "muscle memory", while allowing one to perform tasks with great speed and fluidity with a high degree of success, it is also a "trap" if/when you have to use something other than what you trained on. Possibly a deadly trap in a defense situation.
I was lucky enough to learn this with a borrowed shotgun and a pheasant. The gun in my hands that day was not the one I had been using for a decade and a half, not the one where my finger knew where the safety was.
Snap shot, I lined up, punched the safety off, and pulled the trigger. Nothing. same process, repeated twice more as the pheasant sailed off, probably laughing.
I had pushed the safety off, and not only did it not fire, it didn't even click. Because the safety I pushed off by muscle memory was at the front of the triggerguard, and on the gun I was holding that day, the safety button was at the BACK of the triggerguard.
When you train yourself to operate something to the level that it is unconscious (muscle memory) you could be at a serious disadvantage if circumstances force you to use something else.
Whatever system you choose, choose the same system for your backup gun, or your replacement gun. OR invest some serious training time on a new system, and do it before you need to rely on your muscle memory with it.
I was lucky enough to learn this with a borrowed shotgun and a pheasant. The gun in my hands that day was not the one I had been using for a decade and a half, not the one where my finger knew where the safety was.
Snap shot, I lined up, punched the safety off, and pulled the trigger. Nothing. same process, repeated twice more as the pheasant sailed off, probably laughing.
I had pushed the safety off, and not only did it not fire, it didn't even click. Because the safety I pushed off by muscle memory was at the front of the triggerguard, and on the gun I was holding that day, the safety button was at the BACK of the triggerguard.
When you train yourself to operate something to the level that it is unconscious (muscle memory) you could be at a serious disadvantage if circumstances force you to use something else.
Whatever system you choose, choose the same system for your backup gun, or your replacement gun. OR invest some serious training time on a new system, and do it before you need to rely on your muscle memory with it.
Safety manipulation training is good till it is ingrained in the subconscious --- Yet if my self conscious realizes that my 1911 thumb safety does not need to be off at the moment I grab the pistol to go ready --- I'm sure as heck not going to let my subconscious rule the day over my self conscious.
When I go hunting...I don't flick the safety off every time I go ready --- And I'm sure as heck realize that their is a time an place for such a reflexive movement like safety manipulation.
When I go hunting...I don't flick the safety off every time I go ready --- And I'm sure as heck realize that their is a time an place for such a reflexive movement like safety manipulation.
- Status