manual safety is unnecessary?

[OldMarksman]

Posted by dajowi:

This discussion over manual safeties is pointless.

There was the reason for the question being posed in the OP.

The gun you have either has one or not.

What if you do not have it yet?

The shooter either likes them or not

I thought I did, but I sold my SR-9C and bought a firearm with a gip safety.

My choice. May not work for others.

 

[AK103K]

It really matters little what you choose or why, as long as you train regularly and realistically with it, so you know it, and dont have to think about it and its manipulations, when you handle it.

Just having something, because Billy Bob told you you need a manual safety, or not, means nothing. YOU have to learn how to use, what you choose, and thats no one elses responsibility.

Believing that special safety on your gun will always protect you, just because its there, is just asking for trouble, and wishful thinking.

 

[Deaf Smith]

MAG-20....... I'm way past that. Way past.

Believing that special safety on your gun will always protect you, just because its there, is just asking for trouble, and wishful thinking.

100 percent true.

Deaf

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Deaf Smith:

MAG-20....... I'm way past that. Way past.

You apparently missed, or did not remember, or did not comprehend the discussion about trained persons touching the trigger without remembering it.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by AK103K:

Believing that special safety on your gun will always protect you, just because its there, is just asking for trouble, and wishful thinking.

Very true indeed. That's something to remember, always.

It's just risk reduction. Like the fire extinguisher in your kitchen.

And it can work against you, adding risk, as I found in a training class.

I changed to a grip safety. But it, too can fail, whether by staying depressed or by resisting the force of the hand, due to lint, etc. Or due to movement of a grip sleeve.

Just risk reduction.

 

[Sharkbite]

You apparently missed, or did not remember, or did not comprehend the discussion about trained persons touching the trigger without remembering it.

How is a manual safety going to change that?? With a 1911 pistol the safety should be disengaged as part of the draw stroke (count 4 is commonly taught). That should be ingrained to prevent ending up with the gun on tgt and the safety still engaged.

So you end up with the gun in hand, safety OFF. If someone is unconsciously "touching" the trigger, the manual safety is of no benefit

The safety is engaged before moving or prior to reholstering.

And before you say thats not the correct way to run the safety, that is how it is taught at the largest tactical training facilities in the country. Gunsite, Front Sight & Thunder Ranch all have taught serious use of the 1911 pistol this way for over 100 years combined.

I personally ran a 1911 while teaching at Front Sight for 8 years. 10's of thousands of students came thru, A LOT of them running 1911's. So i know of what i speak

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Sharkbite:

With a 1911 pistol the safety should be disengaged as part of the draw stroke (count 4 is commonly taught). That should be ingrained to prevent ending up with the gun on tgt and the safety still engaged.

So you end up with the gun in hand, safety OFF. If someone is unconsciously "touching" the trigger, the manual safety is of no benefit

Excellent point, when discussing concealed or other holster carry.

The consideration may be worthy of discussion for one holding a handgun in the house. I do not think I would necessarily disengage the safety immediately upon picking up the gun.

With my XD-S, the grip safety is engaged when the gun is gripped, but the trigger is a heavier than I think incidental touches would press. With the SA .45 it may be another story.

I brought up the issue simply to point out that "keep your finger off the trigger" may not be as effective a mitigation strategy as it sounds. But I think Ayoob probably brought it up in a discussion of pull weights.

Again, that's an excellent point.

 

[Sharkbite]

Properly run, a 1911 safety is taken off ANYTIME the gun is grabbed and brought to the "ready". Upon the decision to move to a different location, the safety is re-engaged and the thumb re-staged on top of the lever...ready to disengage it instantly as the gun goes to tgt.

So, out of the holster or off the nightstand, weapons manipulation remains the same.

 

[Limnophile]

Deaf Smith,

So people can't remember to KYFFOTFT but somehow they can remember to take a safety on and off?

Please don't strawman me. How Obamaesque of you. I said nothing of the kind. Rather, I said:

You accurately point out that training to deactivate the safety after drawing does not guarantee you will always deactivate the safety when you meed to -- just as training to keep your finger outside the triggerguard until the proper time is no guarentee your finger will always stay outside the triggerguard until the proper time.

I'll translate: Training helps reduce the incidence of errant trigger fingers, and it reduces the incidence of improper external safety useage; but, training does not reduce the incidence rate of either to zero.

I congratulate you on your firearms handling safety record, but one anecdote does not in any way negate the findings of a controlled experiment.

 

[44 AMP]

In all this dancing about, I think we missed (at least) one important point.

The manual safety also works when the gun is not in your hand.
and, the safety works until you disengage it, when it is in your hand.

I know the odds are ultra slim, and they have thrown them off mountains and drug them for miles behind trucks, but there can be no denying that, with a trigger tab type "safety" if something pushes against the trigger in just the right spot, the gun will fire. After all, that is what it is made to do!

Every other safety system or added safety system decreases the possibility of this happening. With a grip safety, TWO actions have to happen, and, in opposite directions. With a grip safety and a manual safety THREE separate independent things have to happen in order for the gun to fire.

As a bit of a side note, adding up the time the major training academies have been teaching the 1911 is a bit of a red herring. The US military has WAY more time teaching the 1911, if you add it up the same way.

And yet, they teach different things. They can't both be right, can they???

Well, the fact is, they can be, and they are.

Professional civilian training is aimed at what is best for you, in a defense situation. Military training is aimed at what is best for the military, in every situation.

Where does the necessity of a manual safety come in when your follow the military "empty chamber" rule? It does not.

And yet, the military demanded a manual safety on the 1911.

Perhaps, because, even back then, they recognized that no matter how you train people, a significant percentage are going to do what they think is best for them at the time, OR they are going to unconsciously violate their training. Either way, no training is going to cover 100% of the people, 100% of the time.

For those who believe that the trigger tab is enough, I won't argue with you, but I suggest you look for the video (which should now be a textbook example)
where an undercover cop, giving a talk to young schoolchildren utter the famous words,
"I am the only one in this room capably of handling the Glock Fou-Tay", and immediately afterwards, shoots himself in the leg.

Operator error? absolutely. And thanks to the Glock, he only had to do one thing wrong, not two, or more.

EVERYTHING is safe, PROVIDED one adheres to its specific manual of arms.

I think a manual safety can be a most useful thing, for those times when one does not.

Also, do people NOT take NRA hunter safety courses anymore?? Or is it that people think they are ONLY for hunters???

Hunter Safety covers basic gun safety, first, and foremost. The hunting part builds on that.

And one of the basic lessons of Hunter Safety is to NEVER trust a mechanical safety. Any mechanical device can, and will fail. Always, always ALWAYS handle firearms as if the safety does not work, and you will be safe, if it doesn't work, or if it does.

 

[AK103K]

For those who believe that the trigger tab is enough, I won't argue with you, but I suggest you look for the video (which should now be a textbook example)
where an undercover cop, giving a talk to young schoolchildren utter the famous words,
"I am the only one in this room capably of handling the Glock Fou-Tay", and immediately afterwards, shoots himself in the leg.

Operator error? absolutely. And thanks to the Glock, he only had to do one thing wrong, not two, or more.

Then theres always this, with a 1911 no less.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE&list=RDp3kJ6SU3ycs

EVERYTHING is safe, PROVIDED one adheres to its specific manual of arms.

Thats your answer, for any of them.

 

[Koda94]

Properly run, a 1911 safety is taken off ANYTIME the gun is grabbed and brought to the "ready". Upon the decision to move to a different location, the safety is re-engaged and the thumb re-staged on top of the lever...ready to disengage it instantly as the gun goes to tgt.

So, out of the holster or off the nightstand, weapons manipulation remains the same.

I’m just curious, assuming were talking about a self defense situation here, would the tactic change for someone using a safeyless pistol like a Glock to reholster before moving to a new position?

 

[Limnophile]

OM,

I have my doubts that such touches would activate the trigger on a service Glock, but some 1911 race guns might present a problem.

I believe it was Heim et al. who conducted their experiments with a DA/SA SIG with a pressure transducer on the trigger. Thus, they were able to determine when the trigger was touched and with how much pressure. In the vast majority of cases the touches were inadvertent and not remembered by the experiment participant afterwards when he was debriefed. Raw police recruits had an inadvertent trigger touch rate much higher than highly trained SWAT-type operatives; thus, training helps, but even the SWAT group had trigger touchers.

During an experiement that required the participant to multitask with gun drawn, the inadvertent trigger touches were sometimes enough to activate the SA trigger, and far less frequently enough to even activate the DA trigger. Thus, a long, heavy DA trigger pull is an effective safety mechanism, but, like any mechanical system in human hands, not perfect.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Sharkbite:

Properly run, a 1911 safety is taken off ANYTIME the gun is grabbed and brought to the "ready".

Agree.

So, out of the holster or off the nightstand, weapons manipulation remains the same.

In the case of the later, I may pick it up without bringing it to the "ready".

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by 44 AMP:

The manual safety also works when the gun is not in your hand.
and, the safety works until you disengage it, when it is in your hand.

Absolutely!

In one recent incident. a Glock in the holster was discharged when the trigger was activated by tension on a jacket string that had entered the holster before the gun was put into it.

That possibility is the reason for my selection of an XD-S over a Glock or M&P.

 

[AK103K]

I’m just curious, assuming were talking about a self defense situation here, would the tactic change for someone using a safeyless pistol like a Glock to reholster before moving to a new position?

When I was carrying and regularly using a 1911, the safety came and stayed off once out of the holster. It went back on just before going back in.

Constantly manipulating the safety seems like a bad idea to me.

That possibility is the reason for my selection of an XD-S over a Glock or M&P.

As long as your attendant, and make sure the grip safety isnt deactivated with a normal grip, when you reholster. Something many seem to forget, or not even consider.

 

[Koda94]

When I was carrying and regularly using a 1911, the safety came and stayed off once out of the holster. It went back on just before going back in.

Constantly manipulating the safety seems like a bad idea to me.

this has been my experience as well. I've been considering buying a safety-less pistol but if the prevailing professional tactic is to constantly re-holster to move then it would be easier to just manipulate a safety but if the (safety-less) tactic is to just keep your finger off the trigger then there is no merit to constantly manipulate the safety on guns that have them.

 

[Deaf Smith]

You apparently missed, or did not remember, or did not comprehend the discussion about trained persons touching the trigger without remembering it.

Just cause SOME 'trained persons' touch triggers without remembering it does not mean EVERYONE touches triggers without remembering it. Like I said, 20+ years of IPSC/IDPA, 10 years of teaching CHL, CCWing for over 15 years, and not one AD/ND with anything.

Just cause some do does not mean everyone does. Sadly you think everyone does.

When I was carrying and regularly using a 1911, the safety came and stayed off once out of the holster. It went back on just before going back in.

Right. Keep it simple. On when holstering, off when drawing. Now if one is just demonstrating a technique, I can see it being on, but normally just KYFFOTFT.

And as Clint Smith says about trigger discipline, "on target, on trigger, off target, off trigger."

Deaf

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by AK103K:

As long as your attendant, and make sure the grip safety isnt deactivated with a normal grip, when you reholster. Something many seem to forget, or not even consider.

Good thinking. I do pay a lot of attention to it.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Deaf Smith:

Just cause SOME 'trained persons' touch triggers without remembering it does not mean EVERYONE touches triggers without remembering it.

Perhaps not, but what difference does that make?

The fact that someone does not remember it does not mean that he or she would not do it under conditions of real stress.

Like I said, 20+ years of IPSC/IDPA, 10 years of teaching CHL, CCWing for over 15 years, and not one AD/ND with anything.

Good.

I've been shooting and handling handguns since the mid 1960s, and the only problem I ever had was du to the failure of a crystalline see disconnect in a new Smith Model 39 in 1966.

Just cause some do does not mean everyone does.

Probably not, but how prevalent is it? We do not know. Could be almost everyone.

Sadly you think everyone does.

Don't think I said so.

I will suggest that under stress, anyone might.

I do not believe that an involuntary touch would set off my XD-S.

One more time, this isn't a safety device issue--the grip safety would be depressed, and as Sharkbite pointed out, the safety with on my single action STI would be deactivated. It's more a trigger pull issue.