manual safety is unnecessary?

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The problem with your statement is that a gun owner who never practices with a gun with a safety will not accidentally fire a shot during routine handling, while the one who never practices with a gun without one has a much higher probability.

Nobody on here (or anywhere else) is going to advise never practicing. But for the person who wants a gun in case of a bump in the night, who loads a gun and puts it in the sock drawer, as many gun owners do, a gun with no safety is a bad idea. Glocks ship with a 5.5 pound trigger. Not much more than a revolver with the hammer back. And you want to put something like that in their hands? sure, striker fired no safety guns are safe. But they're not for the casual user.
 
Youre assuming just having the safety makes the gun safer. It does not.

You cant blame the gun for the lack of training on the users part.
 
No. I am asserting that having a safety makes a gun less likely to have a negligent discharge. Should we take the child caps off of medicine bottles and the kill switch off chainsaws too?
 
I am asserting that having a safety makes a gun less likely to have a negligent discharge.
Only if the user isnt negligent.

Should we take the child caps off of medicine bottles and the kill switch off chainsaws too?
What do they have to do with gun safeties?
 
Humans are negligent. Accidents happen every day. Bill Jordan, Marine colonel, legendary border patrolman, survivor of countless shootouts, killed a co-worker, with a revolver. If he can do it, you think you can't?
 
I thought revolvers were "safe"?

If he did so, it was because he was negligent. The gun didnt do it on its own. As safe as the revolver is, he obviously did something with it that wasnt safe.
 
AK in a perfect world safeties would not be necessary on any thing. We do not live in a perfect world. A pistol with a safety is safer to handle, in that there is an extra action that must take place before it will fire. A child proof bottle requires knowledge and ability to open. A kill switch prevents the chainsaw from running if not gripped properly. Everyone of these safety devices would be completely unnecessary if the devices were always handled properly. They do not negatively affect the operation of these devices, they provide an easily handled extra step for the trained user to prevent accidents.
 
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they provide an easily handled extra step for the trained user to prevent accidents.
And the key word, is "trained".

Safety or not, you need to understand and learn to use the gun you choose, or even pick up.

A safety can be equally as dangerous, if you fail to understand it, and its use.

We ALWAYS come back to user training and responsibility, regardless if the gun has 0 safeties, or 100.
 
Of course the key word is trained. Problem is that WAY too many people aren't. Look at the stuff you see in gun shops and on gun ranges. I won't even shoot on a weekend anymore. Too many unsafe idiots around. There is no minimum proficiency needed to own a gun, so most people don't get it.

I teach in a high school now. Law enforcement class for kids who say they wanna be cops. I'm teaching handgun safety right now. We have blank firing 8MM Beretta 92's and deactivated shotguns and hunting style rifles. Lots of kids in the class hunt, so they all think they know about guns. I ask every kid who is familiar with a 12 gauge pump to come up and unload the weapon. NOT ONE of them was able to do it correctly. They all did the "Hollywood shuck them all out" routine. None knew to depress the latch outside the mag tube to unload one at a time. They saw nothing wrong with doing it their way. Said their father taught them how to do it. Who here would rack the slide on the pistol to chamber and eject every round in the magazine? Nobody I am sure. NONE had ever read the owner's manual of their shotgun. Go to you tube and see the other "expert" gun handlers.

I'm a member of another forum where some graduate of TWO "advanced pistol classes" was deriding everybody who likes a safety. This buffoon admitted to carrying his Beretta PX4 Storm with a chambered round, the hammer BACK, and the safety off. Said his "teacher" told him it was no different than carrying a Glock since the trigger is covered. What an idiot. Who here would trust that fool?

Is proper training necessary? of course. Problem is, in MY experience, 95% of the people I see handling a weapon are barely competent.

Will a safety prevent ALL accidents? Course not. But it's one extra layer of security with very little drawbacks. Who here has had to fire their weapon in self defense? So stop with the "a safety can get you killed". I ask for a documented case and somebody shows me one where the operator had NO IDEA how to use the safety. Not such a good example, but I'm sure the poster felt vindicated, even though he clearly knew that doesn't support my assertion that a safety is a benefit. Cops have been saved by them when their weapons have been taken away. Children have been saved when they couldn't fire the weapon their careless parent left access to.

Know what else I like? MAGAZINE DISCONNECTS! Now somebody is gonna tell me I need more training. Guess 25 years, shooting frequently, reloading my own ammo, I still need some training, huh?
 
I have been shooting regularly for at least 35 years... and without a negligent discharge for the last 34. :)

I sort of don't prefer a safety on my own handguns, but don't consider it a super big deal either way. However, I very much prefer that everyone else have a safety on their guns. I have seen lots of idiocy at various shooting ranges over the years. You instructors and RSO's out there have my full sympathy.
 
Of course the key word is trained. Problem is that WAY too many people aren't.
I agree, that is a problem, but how does a safety automatically make a gun the gun safer? If you arent trained/familiar in the use of the safety, and what it can and can not do, or what it even is in the first place, whos to say you will use it properly, or even use it at all?

Just because it's there doesn't necessarily make the gun safer. It always comes back to the user being the final answer.

I'm a member of another forum where some graduate of TWO "advanced pistol classes" was deriding everybody who likes a safety. This buffoon admitted to carrying his Beretta PX4 Storm with a chambered round, the hammer BACK, and the safety off. Said his "teacher" told him it was no different than carrying a Glock since the trigger is covered. What an idiot. Who here would trust that fool?
Again, its understanding what you have and are using, and whats appropriate. Theres a gun, with a manual safety, and its not being used properly. So is the gun safer, or not?

In theory, it is no different than the Glock while in the holster, but the Glocks safeties make the possibility of discharge nil. Not sure the Berretta's offer the same in the capacity described.

Is proper training necessary? of course. Problem is, in MY experience, 95% of the people I see handling a weapon are barely competent.
Scary thought, but again, how is it the guns fault?

Will a safety prevent ALL accidents? Course not. But it's one extra layer of security with very little drawbacks. Who here has had to fire their weapon in self defense? So stop with the "a safety can get you killed". I ask for a documented case and somebody shows me one where the operator had NO IDEA how to use the safety. Not such a good example, but I'm sure the poster felt vindicated, even though he clearly knew that doesn't support my assertion that a safety is a benefit. Cops have been saved by them when their weapons have been taken away. Children have been saved when they couldn't fire the weapon their careless parent left access to.
Ive seen "trained" individuals in practice, do all sorts of silly things. Discharge their guns unintentionally, reholster cocked 1911's and SIG's, without setting the safety or decocking the guns, handing people loaded guns they thought were unloaded, etc. Nothing is 100%, 100% of the time. Add some stress and distractions, and things in that respect tend to go down hill quickly.

As far as the cops being saved, thats a double-edged sword. The cop may have been saved because the other guy didnt know how to work the safety, but in the same vein, the other guy didnt get to prevail, because the safety screwed him up and may well have cost him his life. Point of view can be everything.

Know what else I like? MAGAZINE DISCONNECTS!
What ever floats your boat. Generally, I dont, but if I can see their uses, for someone who is under constant threat of losing their gun to someone else.

If it were the only gun I had though, I wouldnt want one.

Now somebody is gonna tell me I need more training. Guess 25 years, shooting frequently, reloading my own ammo, I still need some training, huh?
Ive got 25+ years on you, and I still learn something new pretty much every day. ;)

I carried a 1911 every day for 25+ years, and Im well aware of what dealing with a gun with a safety entails, and what occurs with them, good and bad. Its not just 1911 type safeties either. Frame mounted, slide mounted, decockers, squeeze cockers, no manual levers, etc, Ive got to play with most, and have a pretty good idea how they all work, and what their weakness are.

The only thing every one of them has in common is, they generally only go bang if you put your finger on the trigger.
 
Finn Aagard said it best-"The only real safety is behind the eyes and between the ears."
French Army practice was no safeties on their rifles, they considered proper handling and training the best safety. Of course, define "proper".
 
I stated it earlier, the only safety you need is between your ears. Keep your booger picker off the bang switch until you are ready to shoot. I am either loaded and ready or I am not. The last thing I want is a mechanical device that I end up trusting my life to that can easily fail, or that I forget to disengage in a SD/HD scenario.

I watched a lady today at the range with an "instructor" (please interpret that VERY loosely) who was showing her how to shoot a 1911. She was so intent on watching the safety, she missed the huge torso target at 7 yards - on the second try. She forgot to take it off on the first. Imagine that scenario in her house with an intruder/rapist.

It's nice that a lot of you guys take the time for a lot of training and that you practice many times per week. That's the norm for folks HERE, but not in the rest of the world.
It needs to be like using the old Brownie camera - point and shoot.

JMO, YMMV
 
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