Made in the USA.... or not.

One last, little addendum, I agree with the concept that they who make the (perceived) best product should prosper in a free market. I would sorely like to see more free markets in the world for OUR goods and services(at least as free as the world has with ours). Have any of you been following China's preparations for the Olympics? Just about ALL U.S. companies have been SHUT OUT (a nice way to treat your #1 trading partener, eh?). I buy what I want, I try to temper it with consideration for our team first, after all, our team is putting the food on my table first and foremost. Thank you all.
Josh
 
JDB
Most of what you have said( except the most of the military issues) was said about the Japanese in the late eighties
. When I was driving home from the army in '84 I heard a man on the radio claiming that America would be a service economy by 2000, perhaps we are I haven't checked.
The Japanese economy imploded a little, the Chinese may or may not.
The Japanese are starting to import most of their labor because of a self imposed population check in the 80s and 90s, the Chinese probably won't have that problem and if they did, so what,
they consider most of Asia as wayward Chinese anyway.

America was warned and given an example of what could happen we ignored it.

What's that old saying about being dumb and tough
 
Whether a gun company is pro-freedom, or allied with the forces of evil (like Ruger and S&W) is infinitely more important than where the gun is made, in terms of where to put my (our) money.

Having said that, I try to buy American where possible (other things being equal). As a result, I have 3 Marlins, 1 Bushmaster, 1 US-assembled Sig, 2 Savages, 5 NEFs, 3 Remingtons...
 
News flash

I've got news for you Half-Pint Assassin. Glocks are not made in Germany. They are made in Austria and soon to be made in the USA
 
Since our tough guy government cozies up to the Saudis - the major sponsor of terrorism that actually hurts us, I'm not concerned by buying a Glock or two.

Every tough patriot guy in a gas guzzling pick up is supporting a fundamentalist regime that isn't really that friendly to the good ol' USA.
 
There are times I buy Chinese, for that pipe wrench for the cottage...if someone breaks in and steals it, my good ones are at home.
What I hate, is the American companies using their brand name to import and sell foriegn goods. NEF imports a Chinese shotgun, under their name, Buck knives are selling foriegn knives, and so on. They are ruining their brand name, in my opinion, and are making a scam on the American public, thinking they are buying American goods.
If I buy foriegn goods, I do not want to pay double the price, because some American company put their name on it.
 
China does not just make cheap, plastic, crap. They will be bringing their ultra-cheap Chery autos here in '07


What I hate, is the American companies using their brand name to import and sell foriegn goods

Yep - the engines in the Chevy Equinox come to mind when I read the above comments. I was shocked when I looked at the Equinox when it first hit the market and read on one of the window stickers - "engine , country of origin - China" And I thought the 5 speed automatic was a nice addition - that was a made in Japan unit!

To the topic of the original post - Guns I have that are made outside the US:

CZ 452 rifle

Air guns:

Beeman R7
Beeman P3
Weihrauch HW30

In the past I have owned:

Springfield Armory 1911 - owned 2
Sig P220
Sako Finnfire
Weatherby MKXXII
 
I have:
one handgun made in Germany (P38)
two rifles made in Germany (Mausers)
one rifle made in Finland (SAKO)
one air rifle made in Germany (RWS)
two air rifles made in Spain (GAMO)
two air rifles made in China (Tech Force)
one air pistol made in China (Tech Force).
All my other toys were made in USA (one with German parts - I made the receiver).
 
I don't buy American. I buy the most for my money. Good quality at low prices. I find a lot of American products to be very trashy and of lousy quality. I cant stand the entire keep American jobs at home crowd. Take a class in economics. If somebody else is doing something better and cheaper than let them. It is a waste of resources and manpower to try to force people to buy what will become a more expensive and sometimes inferior product.
 
1 - turn over keyboard. Note country of mfg.
2 - open PC and look inside. Note country of mfg on the individual chips.
3 - call tech support and ask what country they are in.

Folks - it ain't all the mfg's fault for going outside the borders to produce and support just about every product on the market. Sure bottom line plays an important part - You have to follow the whole trail though. You have to consider all the things that affect the bottom line.

Most of the increased cost and decreased quality start at the .gov level.

Never ending rules and regulations have a stranglehold on every business in the country.
Ever increasing .gov programs (giveaways) have destroyed the incentive to work.
Mounting taxes have eliminated any possibility of ever getting ahead.

We (the company I work for) hired a new support engineer last week. His first day was Monday and his last day was Tuesday. He failed the drug test. Training cost for an engineer where I work run close to $25,000. per certification, or about $5,000. for a week long training and subsequent test.
This guy had 5 of the 6 tests needed for his MCSE.
The next best candidate has zero. The bottom line here is that the guy's replacement is going to cost the full $25,000 to bring him up instead of $5,000.
Who madates drug testing and drug screening?

The Ohio Bureau of Workers' Compensation.
 
I have guns from all over...half or more from the U.S.

The latest is a used Winchester SX2 shotgun. The barrel and various small parts were made in the U.S.A. The receiver was made in Belgium. The camo stock was made by a "famous synthetic stock company" - I assume in the U.S., but maybe not. The gun was assembled in Portugal.

Of course, Winchester is owned by the Herstal Group(FN) which is owned by the Walloon regional government of Belgium. My BHP was assembled in Portugal, too.

No Chinese guns yet, but I do have a synthetic jacket that was made in Mongolia. It's probably the best jacket I've ever owned that wasn't made of leather.

John
 
Okay, so we have moved "beyond a manufacturing economy" into exactly what kind of economy? China does not just make cheap, plastic, crap. They will be bringing their ultra-cheap Chery autos here in '07 (with the help of of Malcolm Bricklin, and his band of renowns). If you say "service economy", I'll ask if you want fries with that. This country grew into being a world leader as a manufacturing economy.
Click to expand...

We have grown into a consumer economy. We consume more products, energy and other natural resources then anyone else in the world. The US comming out of WWII was China. China is using the exact same model we did. We pumped US products out after the war. Who did we sell them to the established consumer economies of Europe. It was not the manufacturing per say that made the US great. It was the inovation and the technology that we created. We need to become a innovation/technology economy. If we stay on the cutting edge of developing products medical, electronics, computers, mirco chips etc...we need to be on the cutting edge of manufacturing. Once inital high profit has erroded we can afford to export the manufacturing to a cheaper enviroment and move on the the next technology.

China's markets are, to a great extant, closed to us, as are many other asian markets. Why should we allow their stuff into our country with any more freedom than they allow us? The Chinese government has lately said they will open their market in "high technology" products to us(you know, the ones that will help them copy our superior military electronics manufacturing).
Click to expand...

We have to let their products into the country because the US worker refuses to manufacture the goods that we consume everyday at a price people are willing to pay. Look at Walmart who undermines American manufacturing everyday yet people are still shopping there.


The Yuan's valued at about 60% of what it should be. Make no mistake, China plays "hardball" in every arena they enter. Their trade mission pissed all over ours just two weeks ago. Our trade deficit with China will be the undoing of foriegn investment in this country. When that happens, we really will be "through". Where do you think all the investment capital supporting our economic expansion and housing "bubble" has been coming from? (I'll give you a hint, it wasn't GM!) Wall street is where that money comes from, they get it, in very large part, from FORIEGN INVESTMENT. Where do you think China has been investing the hundreds of billions of U.S. dollars?
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Yes the Yuan is pegged to the dollar and they set it lower so buy our debt. Our undoing will truely be our debt and the brain drain created by our poor education system and our anti-immigration policies which are barring the world best and brightest from comming here to be educated as they have done historically.

Have you taken a look at their military modernization and build-up program lately? What country is making the most aircraft carriers in the world? Yup, China. What country is most actively pursuing our military secrets? You guessed it AGAIN! China! They have already stolen our latest generation of nuke designs and completed the development on them. Remember the big flap over this back in '96?
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Again it sounds a lot like like the US after WWII. WE used the same formula. What is good for the goose is not good for the gander?

Sorry for the long rant here. I have been watching this situation develop for over twenty years. Don't take it personally, just try to look around and ask questions, we are STILL mostly allowed to do that, unlike the average Chinese subject wading through the Benzine-laced flood tide in their neighborhood.
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The world moves in cycles. If we do not adapt then we will loose. The model that made us a power cannot be sustained we need to move on. No one is taking this personally except maybe you. I think that you are being short sighted and not taking into account the possiblities that change has created for us in this country.
 
Let's see, in my current inventory I have the following:

1 American-made revolver (S&W)

1 American-made rimfire carbine (Ruger)

1 English-made centerfire carbine (Enfield)

1 Japanese-made shotgun (Browning)

Next on the to-be-acquired list is a Czech centerfire rifle (CZ).

So, I suppose my ratio is 1:1 at the moment, but soon to change.

I don't get too hung up about buying American. I try to when I can, but my gun purchases tend to be influenced more by cost, utility, and desire rather than political motivations. If I'm going to buy all-American all the time, I'd better stop buying gasoline and trade in that Toyota I just bought (show me a reliable compact American car that gets 41 mpg on the highway, and I might be interested).

I do know there are certain things I prefer not to buy for ideological reasons, no matter how much I might like them. I won't buy anything covered with Nazi markings - just too much bad mojo to sit well with me. Likewise with Arisakas and Mosins. I'm not saying this to pass judgement on anybody who does own these items, it's just not for me.

I used to own a Yugoslavian SKS. I sold it mainly because it didn't fit me right (bad ergonomics). However, I never could shake the feeling that it may have been used for some untoward purposes within its native land. Additionally, when my brother returned from Iraq and I showed it to him, he made the comment that he'd seen some of these ... from the opposite end. :eek: That pretty much ruined any enjoyment I derived from it from then on.
 
Whether a gun company is pro-freedom, or allied with the forces of evil (like Ruger and S&W) is infinitely more important than where the gun is made, in terms of where to put my (our) money.
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What's wrong with Ruger...have they done something that I missed?
 
What's wrong with Ruger...have they done something that I missed?
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Uncle Bill helped author the AWB.
Ruger still does not, at last check, sell more than ten round mags for their Mini 14s
 
Yes, I agree with several points, not the least of them that I'm taking this stuff personally. What burns me up is that China, that bastion of governmental goodwill, should be able to make their obviously sad system pay off. I agree we are a "consumer society" (we have been for over 100 years). How long that can go on as wages slide closer to what the rest of the world makes is a very good question. How much does the average Chinese laborer make? I don't see the viability of our competing with workers willing to work hard for about $2.00 a day. I sure couldn't feed my family, let alone myself, here in America. I've worked hard to get where I am today, and it is being eroded as I watch. I question wether our workers "refuse to manufacture things we use everyday". The workers I observed losing their jobs at Electrolux didn't look too happy to see their plant move to Mexico. That happened after the latest productivity reports from Wall Street still showed U.S. workers as some of the very best. "whats good for the goose......"? We should give the store away to a countries like China and Mexico on such a principle?
What exactly is wrong with equal access to markets? Why should any country have greater access to our markets than we have to theirs? It is not the global nature of trade that bothers me, it is the illusion that it's fair. It is the idea that by lowering our standard of living, we are somehow better off. That Allowing a country like China to openly crap on our trade negotiators, free reign as "most favored nation" into our markets. You think this is a good thing? Whats the viable adaptation here? More "leading edge" rhetoric? How do y'all make your livings? Anyone here feel like giving up half of what they make so a greedy corp. can make more profit? Between unbridled corporate greed and completely imbalanced trade WE (the people who work for a living), can't hope to prosper. Hard to turn out highly educated, productive, "leading edge", "innovative" people if its hard to afford to turn the lights on. There many things at work here. I don't mean to oversimplify. I am just stating the obvious, glaring items.

"anti-immigraton" policies. That's a good one. How many people are trying to get into China vs. how many try to get into the U.S.? Are people dying to get into Mexico? How about places like Kuwait, Syria, Jordan? Maybe Indonesia? How about India? They turn out MANY doctors and engineers every year, many "leading edge" thinkers I have worked with came from there. I don't see the masses clamoring to get into ANY of those countries. No, just our corporations pursuing more profit. That sort of immigration offers no incentive for change on the part of repressive governments. How long can this present way of doing business go on for us? Is it the worker who determines the prices of goods, or is it corporate management pursuing every last dime of profit? Is the problem really all the regulations? Some regulations have been very beneficial, like not handling solvents without protective gear. I watched a "Frontline" last year, and they showed a Chinese worker in a tanning plant, working in a very large chemical vat, naked, because the chemicals would ruin his clothes (that he couldn't afford to replace). No, I respectfully disagree that China is using our model wholly. We had the rise of trade unions in response to working conditions, what does that poor bastard in the vat have? Like I said, there are many things in play here. I don't pretend to have the solution, I do want to discuss it though. I'm really not trying to have a "pissing contest" here. I've learned some, actually. I don't see much good coming our way with all this sudden change. I say sudden because it didn't really get going until the Clinton years, and that wasn't that long ago. It took the better part of a century for the U.S. to reach the top.
Josh
 
Uncle Bill helped author the AWB.
Ruger still does not, at last check, sell more than ten round mags for their Mini 14s
Click to expand...

Wow...how did I miss that one? I guess maybe it had something to do with promoting his products? :rolleyes:
 
Yeah, how you missed it, I'm not sure, unless you just got into guns in the last 5-10 years. Ruger the COMPANY *urged* congress to pass the homeland defense rifle and standard capacity magazine ban of 1994, to their great shame, since the company's auto-pistols were massively losing market share to the higher-capacity glocks and such. Ruger the COMPANY has never apologized for, let alone actually atoned for, this traitorious misdeed.

http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/papabill.html

P.S. B. Ruger, Sr, the MAN said 'No honest man needs more than 10 rounds'. One cannot however, hold that in and of itself against the company Ruger, since it was not said on behalf of the company, and the man is dead. One must, however, hold the above against the company, since the letter was written on behalf of the COMPANY, not the person, and since the successor management did nothing to reverse course upon the death of Bill Sr.
 
Yeah, I was in high school when all of that was going on...that's why I missed it...I never knew...sure do love my GP100 though and I don't think I'll be selling it anytime soon.
 
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