Libertarians pushing for opening of U.S. borders??

There's a serious difference between an open border and illegal immigration.

If your problem with immigrants is that they aren't paying taxes, and taking our "handouts", here's how an open border stops that: you step into the US with the intention of staying, you get a green card and a tax number (SSN, although that particular number has implications of citizenship, so whatever). If you're worried about terrorists, we can throw in an Interpol check while they cool their heels. Except, well, the 9/11 folks had clean records, so I don't know what you want to do about catching them... but, we can definitely do due dilligence (sp).

An open border isn't a complete lack of processing for new immigrants, it is simply an abolishment of quotas. It's also NOT granting automatic citizenship to everybody who walks over the border... the naturalization process still applies.

Furthermore, I personally believe that the government has a responsibility to help those who have need in our society (well, my views are more complex than that, but that's neither here nor there). I would however like to see this country adopt a system more similar to European countries, in which only citizens are granted welfare, unemployment, etc.

Refusing somebody medical care based on the fact that they're "not from 'round these parts" is xenophobic, racist, and inhumane. I gladly pay state taxes so that ER visits are subsidized, and I applaud every time block grants are given to free/cheap clinics.

If you're worried about them "taking our jobs", then you need to wake up and look around for a minute. The rest of the world is already taking our jobs. What's more, they're doing it in the worst way possible: by staying in their own countries and doing our work. Overseas-outsourced factories, skilled labor, and design teams are destroying work for Americans, and America's economy, FAR more than a few thousand migrant fruit-pickers ever could.
 
So it's fallacy to say that free public schooling is a Menace To The Republic [tm], it's been around for a long while without doing any such thing.

It's only a menace when a) I am forced to pay for it whether I make use of it or not and b) it is compulsory.
 
It's only a menace when a) I am forced to pay for it whether I make use of it or not and b) it is compulsory.
If it weren't, we'd have geniuses who a) refused to pay, and b) refused to go.

:rolleyes:

They're a lot more expensive, and I'm not interested in paying for either.
 
Micro,

Perhaps you'd be better off asking people's whose property taxes has been skyrocketing so much that they are actually forced out of their homes because they can't afford them, in large part because their local school district is overloaded with the non-english speaking children of illegal aliens, because they go to the ER after even the slightest injury, who collect many other govt bennies.

Back in the old days we didnt have nearly the plethora of govt nonsense we do now, so perhaps you should keep that in mind. Anytime someone is forced to pay for someones else's services it is a bad thing, when you start to make those services exponential you really start to have a big problem.

Refusing somebody medical care based on the fact that they're "not from 'round these parts" is xenophobic, racist, and inhumane

So it's not possible that I just don't want to go broke paying for other's expenses, especially when they enter my country illegally? Nah, I'm just a bigot, thanks for clearing that up for me.
 
If you aint here legally, I'll be glad to escort you out.
I have read through many notes left in this forum, and I can't understand why some don't get it!! First off, IF YOU CAME HERE ILLEGALLY, YOU ARE A CRIMINAL!! If you brought children with you, you are also guilty of aiding in the delinquincy of minors. By the way, you guys working in Phoenix, Tucson and Chicago with my ID... I would like it back. Also, please pay the apartment rents and the telephone bills you got in my name.

For all those who sympathize with them, since "they are just trying to do betterfor their families", answer this> If I broke into your home while you weren't there and you came home to find my family sitting in your living room because we liked your living conditions better, would you accept us, since I'm just trying to improve my family's quality of life, would you call the police and punish me for trying to improve my family's quality of life, or would you find a secluded place to put the bodies? I live in Arizona, the revolving door into and out of Mexico. I see first hand what is happening to our country, by the illegals. A year ago, if you went to any Home Depot, there would be up to 50 illegals waiting in the parking lot for work. They harrassed females who went by, littered the places to Hell, and if you were stupid enough to pull into the parking lot with a pickup truck, they automatically jumped into the bed, assuming you were there to hire them. And if anyone called the police to have them removed, there was nothing the police could do to enforce immigration laws, because our loving governess vetoed a bill, which would allow the local law enforcement to enforce federal immigration laws. And GOD FORBID you ask them for identification. See, they would always throw in a few activist legals in the group, who would immediately scream racial profiling. Well, the city of Phoenix got smart, and put an end to this. How? By using taxpayer money to erect a building, complete with AC and TV. If you wish to hire illegals, you must go to this building where they all hang out (but don't need ID), show YOUR driver's license, give them the license plate number on your vehicle, and sign a paper that promises to pay a minimum of $10.00 per hour (depending on the labor needed) per worker you take. If you do not pay them according to the paper you sign, the "activists" who run the place will report YOU for unfair labor practices, and as history has shown, you will lose. Of course, these workers don't pay taxes on the money they earn. I have worked at Palo Verde Nuclear Generating Station, the nation's larget nuclear plant will illegals using false ID. I have worked at one of Arizona's prisons, andhave seen illegals working there. And the prison, you don't want to know how many of them are incarcerated, of their philosophies. All I can tell "Gringos", is keep your daughters away from them. And I believe it is more than coincidence that in the US since year 2000, out of 4,000,000 babies born, 2,000,000 of them have been "Latino". I could go on about what we are experiencing in Arizona, but I'll save some for another day. My personal opinion is, let the Iraqis figure out how to run their own country (There are enough Iraqi men who should be able to control their own government at this time) and use OUR soldiers to protect OUR borders. If you don't believe me, get online and look at the letters in our local newspaper, the West Valley View and see what they write in response to critcisms against illegals (Yes, they even write into the newspaper and attack the "Gringos" for having the nerve to want them out). I say, give me a $5 per head bounty, and watch me become a millionaire. By the way, I used to be an officer in the Arizona Libertarian (Maricopa County) Party, and their views on open borders was one ofthe reasons I left. I am now in the process of being a part of the organizing committee to bring the America First Party to Arizona. Read their platform- You would be hard pressed to find something you didn't like, andif you do, let's talk about it.
 
After some consideration, I decided not to let a few "lock up the white women" type posters kill a thread that seems to have some cogent discussion on the subject.
 
Well anyone who thinks our borders are closed, need only study the large number of immigrants in my metro county.
They find work, bring their families, work long hours and attempt to make a better life. Some become criminals.
I've lived near immigrants, most of my life. Early in my life it was immigrants from eastern Europe fleeing WWII and communism. Now its a lot of people fleeing poverty, many from south of the border.
It could be bad; it could have many positive situations.

I've lived near numerous legal and probably illegal immigrants, the last twenty years. It's been mainly a positive experience.
 
Mexico Nabs 2 Iraqis Near U.S. Border
Wednesday, June 29, 2005



MEXICO CITY — Mexican agents in Tecate captured two Iraqis who had hoped to sneak into U.S. territory without proper documents.

Federal authorities say Samir and Munir Yousif Shana (search) told investigators they were contacted by a person in their hometown of Baghdad, who said he could smuggle them into San Diego.

The two have relatives in San Diego.

Federal agents yesterday arrested the pair, along with two accused Mexican immigrant smugglers and a youngster, in the Paso de Aguila district of Tecate.

The Iraqis said they met the accused smugglers in Tijuana, then accompanied them by bus to Tecate. The group was walking toward the U.S. border when they were apprehended.



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,161075,00.html



I guess we need other Sept 11 befor thay do something. :mad:
 
If you wish to use the "lock up the white girls" arguement to defend illegal aliens entering our country and make people who oppose them sound like scared racists, you have that right. All I can say is if we locked them (illegals) out, we would not have to lock up half the things we treasusre most. Maybe you have never been violated by them, but I have. I am still trying to resolve the credit problems and the ID problems I have been caused by them. Have you ever had them build a meth lab next to your house? Have you ever had to get rid of the meth lab yourself because the police would not go into the house, due to the risk of looking like they were racially motivated? I have been through that. Granted, we would have these problems if they were not here, but to a lesser degree. The fact that they even sneak in here, whether with the most honorable of intentions or not, they break their first law by sneaking in. We do not need to support them, their families, or their lifestyles. I like the English language. We should not have to "press 1 for English". Have you ever worked in a prison where almost 30% of the inmates were Mexicans? Have you ever heard what they say about white "B*T*H*S"? If you did, you too would want to lock them out or your daughters up. Maybe you have never experienced the realities of what is happening. Consider yourself blessed. All I am saying is that the US Constitution makes it perfectly clear that our army is supposed to be A: Part time (although the navy is supposed to be a full time operation to defend our coasts) and B: Compiled for the purposes of training and defending OUR BORDERS against illegal entry. I am a 2nd generation American of Spanish (from Spain) descent. My grandparents came here legally in the 1920s. My grandfather worked as a Merchant Marine during WWII on ships flying the American flag. The job took hard workers and brave men. There is nothing noble about sneaking across the border in the dead of night and working for ill gotten gains. I pay taxes and I'm sure you do also. They do not. There is nothing noble about using someone else's ID to work, get an apartment, services or anything else. I am privleged to be born in the greatest country in the world. I know this. However, not evrybody is that blessed. Not everyone is born rich. Not everyone is born healthy, beautiful (Me, for example :p ) or American. We are born where God puts us, and under His conditions. That is why we should keep our government responsible for obeying the ENTIRE US Constitution; not just the 2nd Ammendment, parts of the 1st Amendment and the rest of the juicy parts that appeal to us. We need to close our borders. Let those who come in the legal way come here and thrive. Let the sneak-ins die in the desert. Speaking of which, if they know that hundreds of them die in the desert trying to get here, yet they bring their children along across the same deadly desert, isn't that in itself showing the selfishness of the adults? Yesterday Vicente Fox signed a law allowing out of country "expatriates" to vote in Mexican elections, as long as they were registered to vote in Mexico. First off, if they left Mexico, why should they WANT to vote there, when they don't even want to live there? 2nd, the first complaints broadcast about this was that many illegals in America are not satisfied with that, since they were not registered to vote when they left Mexico, and now it will be too hard to go back, register to vote and then sneak back over here. Read the news stories yourself. Now, if this sort of letter leads you to close this thread in the name of censorship, so be it. Rationalize it any way you want to. Just don't expect everybody in here to pay you homage and agree with your every word. TRY to understand others' positions. To kneejerk respond and close the thread, or attempt to belittle other viewpoints shows that you are afraid of people who care enough to enlighten others. Do I expect everyone to jump to my support? No, I don't. However, this is my message. Accept it, or don't. However, cuando es necesario para hablar espanol para directar comercio en los Estados Unidos de America, asi es posiblemente puedes ver de cual estoy hablando. Thank you for opening up this thread again. I believe people should be able to speak their minds on either side of a subject without reprisal. Bilateral opinionation is actually a very good thing.
 
The most useless quote I've seen today.

Mr. Kloos: MY NAME IS MINE, TO PRAISE OR SCORN...


I find it quite humorous, that after all the postings (not just mine) that have mentioned the use of stolen identifications, you would post that quote. Your name is just yours, until someone steals your ID and sells it around the country. Some statistics that may enlighten you. This is according to a report put out by Channel 15 (Phoenix local)... A social security card is worth $1,500.00 on the streets of Phoenix. A driver's license is also worth $1,500.00. What do you think mine was worth, given I have a Spanish last name, they got my driver's license AND my social security card, and as I stated earlier, they have been used by at least 3 people to work, and 3 others for apartments and telephone service? These are just the ones I have found out about so far.

I think, thank many people who are not "conspiracy theorists", like I have been called, do not understand why our government fails to close the borders. It is called control. Please bear with me while I explain the theory of "Pressure Above, Pressure Below". The government allows illegals into our country by virtue of lax enforcement. MANY of these illegals bring drugs, many come do do us harm. (This is not new- when I was in the USAF in the late 1970s, at one of our briefings we were told of many Middle-Eastern young people, who were coming into our country on student visas, registering for classes, and disappearing into the vastness of America. The fear at that time was that these "students" were planting themselves here for the purpose of hitting us from inside, when the time came. People I told about this when I got out laughed it off, called me paranoid, and brushed it aside. In 1993, they stopped laughing. In 2001, they cried, as did I. I grew up in NY. Lost loved ones and high school friends in the World Trade Center attack.) Anyway, crime rises, attacks take place in America- this is your pressure from below. In response, the government erodes our rights (by way of things like the PATRIOT Act, government seizure laws, gun restrictions, open and covert surveillence of us, etc.) in order to "protect" us. This is the pressure from above. This happens on all levels of government, from the local courts, who wipe a slate clean of 15 or so "youthful offender" violations so when a perp turns 18, he is now a "first time offender", to the Department of Homeland Pageantry. The government depends on these happenings, so that they can prove to us that we really need their protection, otherwise known as their control. What we must do as a nation, is take the government, which is SUPPOSED to be us back under OUR control, or rather, back under Constitutional control, force them to do what is best for us as American citizens and legal immigrants, who came here for what America used to stand for, and clean up the mess they have allowed, without decaying any more of our Constitutional and God given rights. I will only ask this one more time- Please log onto the web, look for the America First Party and just read their platform. They are Constitutionalists, just many of us are. Remember two things> the first priority of any tyranical government is to disarm the populace. Second, if anyone has ever read the Communist Mannifesto by Karl Marx (I did- it pays to know what your enemy is thinking), you will see that there are 12 things that must be in place in order to successfully bring Communism to a nation. These include public education. Currently, the United States has 10 of those 12 things in place :eek: Do not take may word for it; read it for yourself.
 
Simply fact illegal immigrations hurts we the American taxpayer, However
it does help the rich here and in Mexico. I have lived near and on the border
close to 30 years and I have never seen the corruptions and anti american
display this bad , it will only get worse and perhaps move to your neighborhood.

We now take in more people then all countries combined, cost to the taxpayer
in 2002 was 68 billion due to immigration. Can we continue to tour the world
fighting battles to free other countries, continue to send welfare to third
world countries while shipping our manufacturing jobs to same.

Make no mistake our quality of life will change, the middleclass is struggling
now. I do not understand why the idea of controlled legal immigration is wrong
or not understood. Protecting our borders "should" be the first thought with
our government. :mad:
 
Criminla alien invaders

I would like for everyone who is so in favor of the mass of criminals coming over the border to move to within 20 miles of the border and try to live a normal life.
Criminal activity, by both the criminal aliens and the local resident population is out if control.
Politics is dominated by the local Jefes Politico and their thousands of ghost and alien votes.
Law abiding citizens have no chance due to the rigging and the State does little to nothing due to the amount of votes that can be rigged.
Mexico is both corrupt and racist, anyone who has spent any time there is well aware of that.
Unless a lot of money is involved, social position is dependent on the shade of the skin and how much facial and in the case of women, leg and arm hair one can grow.
Indios are the lowest, mestizios next and the "Espanish" [aka hairy types} are top of the pile.
I have spent many years near and in Mexico, I have not been back in 30 years and would never go back again, the criminal and political state has become as bad as the worst slums in America, where I will not go either.
The major political group of mexicans in the US is "La Raza Unida", the Aztatlan movement in Mexico is a purely racist organization dedicated to returning most everything west of the Missisippi River to Mexico and killing or driving out every one not of "The Race", Their motto is, "everything for the Race".
NIce people, we should see about some grants of aid for them.
 
DRINKS> Please keep it down; you'll awaken the dreamers. Right now, they are dreaming of the perfect world in which they live- No robbers, no Anti-Americans, no Anti-White racists, no rapists, no burglars... And it is all because we sat down and talked out our differences...Oh wait a minute- that's all the reasons they give for not needing guns. How can anyone in this thread not realize what is going on around America? The fact that multiple people tell the same stories of what we have experienced means nothing? Because one of you can save a few bucks by taking a job away from a fellow American means illegal immigration is good? You don't have to discuss open borders... Mexico has already opened them, with the unwitting help of our "progressive people". If we do not change things in our goverment quickly, then I will support a civil war. Why? Because whether you want it or not, there will be one. At least, that is what they will call it. When enough Mexicans AND OTHERS are in place, then they will make their move. Maybe you don't mind being enslaved by your gardner or your bus boy, but I will not be.
 
So, there is a secret Mexican army here in the U.S.? All waiting for the signal to spring into action and do what exactly? :confused:
 
So, there is a secret Mexican army here in the U.S.? All waiting for the signal to spring into action and do what exactly?

Hopefully occupy Indiana I believe it would be a good second state for
Mexico. :D
 
Movement

KS;
Please reread my post, the Aztatlan movement is in Mexico.
La Raza Unida is a political organization in the US.
 
wing, second state? I thought Mexico was composed of many states?

Anywho the Mexican immigrants are welcome here. We need people who work rather than sit on the couch and bray for welfare checks like the native-born do.

drinks, O.K., but my post was in response to az's allusion to you guys being enslaved by your gardners and bus boys by some secret army. :eek:
 
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