lets say im at wal mart and some crazy person.....

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teejhot...if you don't want to shoot, that is your call. And quit the sympathy ploy. "The poor guy just wanted to eat"...come on! tell him to go to a friggin' soup kitchen. I don't care if he had the worst luck in the world, if he pulls a gun on someone in a store the dude deserves to eat lead. Yelling at him first could startle him and cause him to pull the trigger or just start spraying rounds around. You give up the element of surprise every time you yell at someone who has already cleared leather.

I have been broke and before and I sold a gun to survive instead of using it to rob. That is the worst rationalization yet on this thread. More power to you if you choose not to shoot, but quit acting "holier than thou" towards people that would prefer to take the shot.
 
Very Very well said joab !!! And correct both morally, tactically,socially and legally (imo) !

but is there any room in this scenario for de-escalation. So the BG has pointed a gun in a cashiers face
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I appreciate your desire for a peaceful outcome. But remember, you didn't ask for this situation. The teller didn't ask for this situation. The guy that asked for it is the bg. And remember he has forfieted his rights. He can let 3 or 4 rounds go by the time you get 3 words out of your mouth. Imo, if you can cap him quickly, you do. The only de-escalation imo would be if a standoff insues. At that point all tactical advantage is gone.

I spoke with a Sheriff deput friend of mine about this type of thing. He said they are not completely required to give a warning then a pause, and if a bg had a gun to someone and he could shoot the guy quickly, he would without notice; or his gun would be going off as his mouth started moving. The deputy has been on the force for a long time and is well respected and decorated.

I don't want to shoot someone if I don't have to.
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Most people dont want to, including the people that advocate shooting the bg quickly.

My goal is always to try and save life not take it.
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You are likely to save the life of the puke, and forfeit the life of innocent people that never caused anyone trouble, that makes sense...

teejhot.40cal:If you have the nerve to shoot someone without yelling something while your gun is trained on him, you have no right to be carrying.
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teejhot.40cal, So, a bg has murdered a member of your family in cold blood. Now the bg has the rest of your family seated on a couch and is screaming that he will kill them. You sneak up behind the bg with your gun. He has no idea you are there. Are you gonna warn him? Are you gonna ask him to put his gun down and de-escelate things because you don't want to take a life? If you say no, do you have a right to carry a gun? If you say no, are you just out to kill people legally?

Your criticism is a joke.
 
I am not sympoathetic to him. I don't care what happens to him. I hate thiefs and they are the scum of the earth one step above chesters. He does deserve to eat lead and probably should. Your right also that he doesn't need to steal. But what do you think the bleeding heart liberal attorney is going to say. He hates you and your guns already. Ask yourself this question, Do I want to shoot someone that doesn't need to be shot? Can I live with shooting someone that doesn't need to die? I am not holier then anyone. Your opinion is worth as much as mine is. I just strongly feel that saving a life or two or ten is worth more then taking one. Isn't that why we all carry, to save and protect lives? Your life is worth no more or no less to me then my life, which is worth no more to me then his life. A life is a life.

My bottom line do what you have to. No more, no less. Can we at least agree on that.
 
Some of you sound so scared to use your gun that you might be happier to play your odds at being a victim.

All this "they'll sue you" crap is outrageous. Fact is that you probably won't get sued, if there is enough evidence to support your side. Don't you think there are cameras at WalMart? They have them in the parking lots, yet you think they won't have them inside?

Ok, so lets say you yell to him to stop, he panics, and kills the clerk. Who's gonna get sued then? yeah, it will probably cost you a lot of money.

If you shoot him and he's got a BB gun? Well, what he's doing would get him an armed robbery charge, wouldn't it? Read up on it and see how many people rob banks with a finger in a pocket, or a bb gun...and they get charged with ARMED robbery.

My thoughts..
in my state, I can shoot him because he is committing a felony assault with a deadly weapon. Therefore deadly force can be used against him...by any person that is trying to stop the crime.

What about this "we're not LEO's" stuff? You have the same right to defend yourself or others that a cop does, so why are you so scared to do so?

Me? I'd probably shoot the guy without any words to him. My second most likely response would be to get stable and steady aim before requesting that he stop. ...and shooting if he made any move that I didn't like.
 
teejhot.40cal: Do I want to shoot someone that doesn't need to be shot? Can I live with shooting someone that doesn't need to die?
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Who doesn't need to be shot? Who doesn't need to die? I'll tell you who. All the innocent people that this scum is pointing a gun at. And you might be the only person in the room with the tools and trainging to stop him.

teejhot.40cal: But what do you think the bleeding heart liberal attorney is going to say.
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Just me, but I will not let the threat of a liberal attorney stop me from doing what is right. I don't let the threat of being sued stop me from giving cpr or help someone who is choking.


teejhot.40cal: I just strongly feel that saving a life or two or ten is worth more then taking one.
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One thing we agree on. But it shows your argument null and void. It goes against your prescription. By yelling and warning and giving the bg a huge break, you are risking the lives of multiple people.

teejhot.40cal: Your life is worth no more or no less to me then my life, which is worth no more to me then his life. A life is a life.
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That is the saddest statement yet. I place the lives of my family above myself. I place the value of innocent people's lives above a bg that wants to murder in cold blood.

You're saying that the value of the life of a cold blooded murderer is the same as say your mother or daughter. WOW, sorry to hear that.

With that liberal peacenick pacifist philosphy, it would be impossible for you to EVER justify defending yourself or anyone else for any reason... why do you carry then? If you struck soemone with your fist, tht would mean you place their value below yours.

LEt me guess - WAR is NEVER justified, right?

You didn't answer the question about the bg taht killed a family member taht you snuck up on. I am curious.
 
questions like this invariably draw terrible advice

because everyone posts based on either:

their own opinions (or feelings :rolleyes:), which are less than worthless, or:
their own state law, which is worthless unless you live in the same state.

The correct answer is:

DEPENDS UPON YOUR STATE LAW.

Learn it.
Know it.
Follow it.
Live by it.
Period.

Thus endeth the lesson.

That is all. :)
 
orionengnr, such majestic wisdom. we should be honored. how foolish we have been all this time. We should have just come to you first for the only answer. It's so hard for us stupid and worthless people toiling around so.
 
Lighten up, Francis...errr, mattro.. :)

Go back and read it again.

Saying, "Yeah, I'd plug him" or "No, you'd best not" is entirely subjective, given the poster's location and/or belief system.

None of that matters.

What matters is the law where you live, because that is what will determine the outcome of the actions that you choose.

If your actions are in accordance with the laws of your state, you will be fine. If not...not.

Got it?
 
It depends what State you reside in... Florida, Indiana and some others have passed the Castle Doctrine... you are within your right to stand and fight...LE's are often at a disadvantage since they open carry and have much closer scrutiny (public opinion, soft judiciary etc.) to justify the use of deadly force vs. JohnQ or JaneQ Public IMHO
 
HiPowerGuy and orionengnr, Yes, there is a world of difference between the various laws and the various States. Yes, one should know the laws of the locale that they carry. I agree completely.

That's one of the reasons my public info has my city and State location filled out. When I make such a pronouncement, it should be assumed that such is for my area and my area only.

People who, for whatever personal reasons, don't give their locations and make such statements, then fall prey to your criticisms. Those of us that post our locations, do not fall into that category.

It generally saves time when making such statements, rather than to post that this info is only relevant to my State (followed by the incongruous posting of the particular State that is now public info).

No offense meant, but critical thinking seems to be in short supply, lately. :rolleyes:
 
If you have the nerve to shoot someone without yelling something while your gun is trained on him, you have no right to be carrying. If you just want to kill someone legally, get help. Watch Clint Smith on PDTV. He always yells stop a split second before he shoots.
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It never ends

Because I don't feel the need to imitate something you saw on TV I am bloodthirsty and should not carry a gun

Please show me the statute that says you have to shout anything before engaging someone who is an imminent threat to innocents
It doesn't exist, just as the statute that says you can't shoot till he starts shooting doesn't exist

If you believe that there are any absolutes in life much less violent encounters then it is you who should hang up the guns.

Keep getting your survival info from gun gurus on TV
I hope it goes well for you
 
Yes, we get the point that you want to kill the BG, but this is T&T not L&P, so please tell us how to get ourselves out of the mess we are in when we decide to to tell the BG to drop his gun after pointing ours at him, or that maybe cover/ concealment is a good/ bad idea or to make yourself as small a target as possibe or try to appear all big and intimidating...
 
orionengnr,
Once again you make very dogmatic statements as to what matter in our opinions of what action we would take:

None of that matters.
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What matters is the law where you live, because that is what will determine the outcome of the actions that you choose.
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You don't speak for me. And I would gues you don't speak for alot of people on this board.

I don't think the legal outcome of my actions is the only thing that matters, and it doesn't dictate all my actions.

The action I expect I would take is not solely dictated by the laws in my state. Foolsih as it may be.

As law will set the tone of what I do (like ccw, ability to defend my home, etc.), it will not control my actions and reaction in the heat of a dangerous situation. If I see someone in danger of their life, I do not recite the law in my head, then react based on that law. I will act on what I feel is the right thing to do.

If I lived in a state that outlawed what I deamed was defending innocent people, then I would do everything in my power to move as soon as possible.

Will it land me in jail? maybe. Life is full of maybees, and I don't let alot of them rule my life.

Your dogmatic statment the only thing that dictates a ccw's actions that matter is the law, I disgree. In my case morals, intuition and survival will trump the law. My hope is the law will see my actions favorably.

When someone says they would handle it a certain way, don;t tell them it is worthless without the law on their side.

Got it?
 
so please tell us how to get ourselves out of the mess we are in when we decide to to tell the BG to drop his gun after pointing ours at him
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This criminal has guts and obviously little to loose. If you pull your gun and try to sweet talk, than you have created a mess, things will likely escelate out of control quickly.

I would not pull my gun unless I could shoot him without endangering people more than they already are.

My guess is, most criminals as brass as this one will start shooting the instant you pull yours and yell. You see it on youtube all the time. As soon as a defensive gun comes out, the lead starts flying.
 
When I first decided to apply for my CWP, I talked to a few experts: Prosecuting attorneys and Police. I wanted to know the laws; the use of force continuum; etc. I mentally worked through many scenarios. Being who I am and what I've done in the past, I have no doubt that I can take another life... Not that I want to, understand, but the possibilities are there, nonetheless. The only questions I really had, were the legal and civil consequences surrounding such an event.

I worked through those before my CWP was ever received, and I am comfortable with the fact that in all likelihood, I will be arrested; my firearm confiscated; I may face prosecution and civil charges... All related to having to draw and fire... Something I had hoped would never happen.

But there was one thing I understood. If I had to draw, then I had to be prepared to fire. Instantly. I also had to be prepared to withhold from firing if, in that instant of drawing, the situation changed.

In Dec. of 2002, I had to make that split-second decision. In that case, I drew my carry weapon, commanded the "perp" to freeze but did not fire. The kid froze. [another story for another time]

The point, of course, is that if you carry, you must have already wrestled with the legal and moral implications. If you haven't, don't carry. You're a liability to yourself and everyone around you.
 
Some of you sound so scared to use your gun that you might be happier to play your odds at being a victim.
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Think what you want. I still don't want to shoot someone if I don't have to. But isn't what is said on this forum. It is what happens when the chips are down.
 
Antipitas,
Posting my location really has nothing to do with the advice I gave for knowing the laws being a big advantage when you carry. There are a lot of states that offer CCW reciprocity. Most if not all require you abide by the laws in the state you are carrying, not just the state of issue. I reside in South Carolina and at last count, there was about ten other states I can legally carry because I have a SC CCW.

In no way am I advocating the well being of the "BG". I agree with you in principle and morally. What I am saying is that there are consequences, both criminal and civil that CAN cost you big dollars, when you shoot someone in the back or in his ear, for example. Right, wrong, "he deserves it", etc has absolutely nothing to do with what you will be faced with in the aftermath.

I carry because I am well prepared to defend my life and my family's life if needed and I do not take the responsibility lightly. I have taken state required CCW training prior to being issued my CCW in several states. Each training course spent hours reviewing the civil consequences of shooting (not just the criminal. I forget the exact figures, but the majority of non-LEO shootings are followed by a civil suit of some kind. The notion "I can't be sued" because what I did was legal or moral displays a lack of understanding of our civil court system. You can be sued for just about anything and regardless of the outcome of that suit, you will need to defend yourself and that CAN result in large legal bills.

I am not saying this has to be the first or largest factor in a shooting, especially given the situation. However, being aware of the potential consequences, not just the legal ones, is good advice and should be well thought BEFORE anyone pulls a trigger.

"Nuff said.
 
What I am saying is that there are consequences, both criminal and civil that CAN cost you big dollars, when you shoot someone in the back or in his ear, for example.
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Show me the statute that says you must give the BG a "fair" chance when he is threatening the lives of innocents
Show me one that gives any indication of which way the shots must come from
I can't speak for those other locations but in Florida a good shoot is judgment proof, and that particular law will be sweeping the country soon

If your shot safely drops him and ends the confrontation who is going to sue?

If your warning causes him to start shooting or find a human shield you stand a much better chance of losing a suit, or many

There is more to life than money, how much is it worth to be able to look in the mirror in the morning?
 
but the majority of non-LEO shootings are followed by a civil suit of some kind
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Maybe you could back your statements up with some numbers or facts.

Personally in the last 30 years that I was involved in ccw and living in a highly populated area in the WNY I can only remember 2 civilian cases and they were both bad shoots and I agreed with both.

kenny b
 
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