lets say im at wal mart and some crazy person.....

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Here is what the PA State law has to say on matter.

§ 506. Use of force for the protection of other persons.
(a) General rule.--The use of force upon or toward the
person of another is justifiable to protect a third person when:
(1) the actor would be justified under section 505 of
this title (relating to use of force in self-protection) in
using such force to protect himself against the injury he
believes to be threatened to the person whom he seeks to
protect;
(2) under the circumstances as the actor believes them
to be, the person whom he seeks to protect would be justified
in using such protective force; and
(3) the actor believes that his intervention is
necessary for the protection of such other person.
(b) Exceptions.--Notwithstanding subsection (a) of this
section:
(1) When the actor would be obliged under section 505 of
this title to retreat, to surrender the possession of a thing
or to comply with a demand before using force in self-
protection, he is not obliged to do so before using force for
the protection of another person, unless he knows that he can
thereby secure the complete safety of such other person.
(2) When the person whom the actor seeks to protect
would be obliged under section 505 of this title to retreat,
to surrender the possession of a thing or to comply with a
demand if he knew that he could obtain complete safety by so
doing, the actor is obliged to try to cause him to do so
before using force in his protection if the actor knows that
he can obtain complete safety in that way.
(3) Neither the actor nor the person whom he seeks to
protect is obliged to retreat when in the dwelling or place
of work of the other to any greater extent than in his own.


So if you break this down a little bit. You are by law allowed to act to save of life as if you were that life. In other words if someone pointed a gun at you could you draw and fire back? Could you retreat? I don't know what state you live in but I can tell you that every state now has consolidated online statues. So take a look but according to law you are justified in PA.

It took me maybe 30 seconds to look this up. So when asking a question based on what the state law says try that first. If you are looking for opinions than forums are a great place. But remember that on forums there is a lot of information and a lot of less than desirable content.
 
What a bunch of bogus advice this guy is getting...for the most part. If the dude whips out a gun and asks the clerk for the money you darn well better shoot him before he starts shooting or what is the point in having your gun with you? Wait until he starts shooting people before you shoot him? Are you people kidding me? Hey, if some guy pulls out a realistic looking fake gun and those around him can't tell its fake shoot him and you would be in the clear legally. Plus, the idiot DESERVES to be shot for pulling a stunt like that. You really want him around contributing to the gene pool? It doesn't matter one iota whether you are an LEO or not. If there is a threat to life whether it is yours or someone elses you have every right to cap the guy.

Geez! What is everybody so timid for these days?

P.S. I have been an LEO for nearly 19 years.
 
it is a compelling question though. I've wondered the same thing.

If you waited, and the perp didn't shoot anyone and left the building, what about following them outside to see if you might be able to hold them for the police? bad thinking due to lack of cover and still more customers likely roaming around I guess?

I'd really hate to have to let a criminal leave knowing I could stop him, but I would be very concerned about where I was positioned, would my screaming freeze cause more problems, etc. This type of scenario is actually one of the "reasonings" that persuaded me to start carrying, along with the VT shootings and that ex military old man in Detroit about a week or two later who got pummeled trying to get in his car and a group of kids were in the next parking spot watching and doing nothing. That one drove me nuts. I presume in that case, there was no way to know the old man wasn't going to be killed, considering how hard he was being hit upside the head by the door, and I probably would have shot in that case, gotten as close as I reasonably could if time was available and dropped the terd. That disgusted me more than most other incidents.
 
What a bunch of bogus advice this guy is getting...for the most part. If the dude whips out a gun and asks the clerk for the money you darn well better shoot him before he starts shooting or what is the point in having your gun with you? Wait until he starts shooting people before you shoot him? Are you people kidding me? Hey, if some guy pulls out a realistic looking fake gun and those around him can't tell its fake shoot him and you would be in the clear legally. It doesn't matter one iota whether you are an LEO or not. If there is a threat to life whether it is yours or someone elses you have every right to cap the guy.

Geez! What is everybody so timid for these days?

P.S. I have been an LEO for nearly 19 years.

Actually in the state of KY, your advice could get someone sent to jail for a long, long time.

You are NOT clear at ALL LEGALLY if you shoot someone, that appears to be holding up a cashier, but has a fake gun. If he has a fake gun that looks real, guess what, that's manslaughter. In KY it is VERY clear, that if you act to save another's life, then the scenario MUST be exactly as it appears. If its not, if say, it turned out that he was joking, or that it was a fake gun, or that anything other than what it appeared to be exactly, what if its some 17 yr/old with a BB Gun that is just trying to impress his friends? You can get into some deep crap. The advice given above was pretty spot on. Since no ones life is in eminent danger, you shooting him only ends up with you being the bad guy. Give him what he wants, live to fight another day. Again, we are CCDW Card holders, not LEO's. He's presumably not just threatening lives, he's wanting money. Money never equals the right to take another's life, regardless of what end your on.

When something goes down and your DIRECTLY involved, IE, your the victim, its another story entirely. Your basically giving advice, that in certain states, may send a person with good intentions away for a long time.

LEO or not, your information is wrong, at least in my state.

Not too mention all of the various charges bystanders may take up on you, just because you pulled the gun out. Pick your battles wisely, and basically, if it doesn't directly affect YOU or YOUR LOVED ONE, don't get in it. It's hard, but what would you rather do, sit behind bars to look at your wife and kids, or say "It's a good thing I didn't shoot that kid at Wal-Mart?"
 
lets say im at wal mart and some crazy person.....
whips out a gun and yells at the service desk "give me all the money!"

You mean to tell me that a "crazy guy" screaming and pointing a gun at a clerk is not reason enough to shoot him in Kentucky? Am I glad I don't live there! And I thought CA laws were bad. Do you realize how stupid that is? Just wait until he kills someone before you can shoot him? Something is wrong there.

And stop with all the "kids and bbguns" stuff, how often has that ever happened? What kind of laws does Kentucky have anyway. I suppose if someone knocks at your door at home and forces his way in pointing a gun at you and asking for money that you can't shoot him becasue all he wants is money?

"Presumably just wants money"? Oh, okay, we'll just take the idiots word for it. The crazy guy is pointing a gun at a clerk in a crowded store and we are supposed to think he is not a threat and just wants money? About the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. sorry for the tirade, that is just stupid logic.
 
Some guy at my conceal class asked this EXACT question. Bottom line is, the associatres are trained on what to do. Which is comply with the rover. Why u ask? Because 99.99% of the time the theif will take the money and leave. You r probably putting more people in danger by shoting
 
Spent most of my life in New York State, the law is pretty clear there.

Article 35:

3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to
be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that
another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such
dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other
person when he reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or
terminate the commission or attempted commission of such burglary.

Kenny b

New York is one of the best states regarding ccw laws and personal protection.
 
Every situation is different. If he starts shooting, it is a given that you are going to fight back. What I would do first is seek cover/concealment and draw my weapon, get a good description of the individual, and see what his intentions are. I know no one is reading this. Then if takes his intention is strictly robbery, no one gets hurt and you saved a life instead of taking it. Let's look at the airsoft scenario for sake of argument. In my state, if I didn't realize it was an airsoft gun, I would be justified in shooting him. But just because it's LEGAL doesn't make it RIGHT. There is a way to find out really quick. Give him clear and concise commands to drop his weapon. If it is an airsoft gun, he is going to listen and probably be quite quick about it. MAKE SENSE?:)
 
This actually did happen at the WalMart near me a couple months ago.

Guy walks up to the in-store bank branch, demands money while discreetly brandishing a handgun.

Camera got his face, arrested not long after.
 
My 2 cents.... I'm not a lawyer and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night....but here are 2 principles I keep in mind at a minimum when carrying a CCW.

1. Know the laws inside and out of where you are carrying...they vary from state to state and county or juristiction even. Recall some states permit reciprocity. There are over 20,000 gun laws in this country and many overlap and just as many contrdict each other.

2. Regardless of you shooting someone legally and/or justified, which is another way of saying you will not be charged by the government with criminal prosecution, you can be sure you will be pursued with civil charges by either the guy you shot or his family, where the burden of proof is usually much less than the standards set by criminal prosecution. Even if you manage to be cleared of civil liability, you can say bye-bye to your savings account, your house and your boat.... you'll go broke in legal fees.

As stated in this thread before....drawing your gun is the LAST line of defense.
 
In Georgia, we have a shoot first law.

Which means, if someone is holding up someone with a firearm and demanding money, I can shoot him without ever telling him to drop his weapon.
 
In Georgia, we have a shoot first law.

Which means, if someone is holding up someone with a firearm and demanding money, I can shoot him without ever telling him to drop his weapon.


Again being legal does not mean being right. Unless he is shooting you should command him to stop. When I train and shoot, I yell stop every time I draw. You never know he might comply and you avoided your gun being in a police evidence room plus any legal fees that might occur.
 
So...a guy already has his pistol out and the finger on the trigger...you ask him to drop his weapon...he can fire his weapon at least twice, if not more, before you can react fast enough to fire yours. If the guy already has his weapon out in a threatening manner all you are doing is giving him more time to do more damage if you command him to drop his weapon.

Whowouldathunkit? NY with better laws than KY? :)
 
bruxley makes a good point....

....and KY laws suck. PA used to be pretty poor about needing to retreat , too.

I agree with Bruxley you have to watch them and make a call. Formerly, handing over the money was the safe tactic, just like formerly it was the accepted tactic to acquiesce to hijacker on airplanes. Just as skyjacking has changed, so has the level of gratuitous killing in formerly simple robberies.

I'm NOT an LEO, which is why I'm NOT going to ask him to drop the gun before I shoot (if that's the decision I go with--again, a tough call on the spot).
 
Don't get me wrong, if you choose not to shoot or to warn the guy or whatever, that's your call...I am just saying you will give up the all important element of surprise if you do. I think I would rather be tried by twelve than buried by six anyway.
 
If someone breaks and enters in your home you can shoot them. Otherwise out of the home there are a whole variety of factors that come in to play. In this case in Wal-Mart most people and the news will probably say the guy was there to steal a little money and you caused a shoot out. In this case if you kill the guy you have the possibility (not saying you will be charged) but the possibility of being charged with murder or other crimes. If someone else gets killed because of your actions you could be responsible for their death. If he does take a hostage you will only complicate things more by drawing down on him. If he points the gun at you I believe you would have a good leg to stand on if you shot him. (I would shoot in this matter). Probably is is that it is already a bad situation with the guy robbing the store and anthing you do the media will turn it out to be even worse. Unfortunatly the laws of this country allow us to bear arms it just does not tell us how we can use them. Fortunatly most robbers are after money they take it and leave. Robbers take hostages when there plan is flawed by someone elses actions. So if you do fire it will be a tricky situation and there will be things you could be charged with or you could turn out to be a hero. Just depends on how the media will portray the event and how the lead leo official on the scene see's things.
 
You guys have to keep in mind in incidents like this that there are bystanders there. If nothing were to happen to you legally in civil action they could sue you. They could say you put there life in danger or if you killed the robber his family could do the same. Does not mean either side would win. Just know this from someone who has been in a few courtrooms in my life that most any jury will be more sympathetic to a sob story such as he put my life in danger or a mother there crying saying he killed my son. He may have been trying to rob the store but in a jury's eyes you could been looked at as a murderer. The jury was not there they did not see what happened. The jury see's the picture the prosecuting attorney will paint in their minds.
 
kcole...you would wait until he points the gun at you to shoot him? You might as well already count yourself as a victim.

You do bring up good points. The guy might just want the money. However, as said before on this thread, wanton killings in "simple" robberies are on the rise and I am not going to wait and find out if this guy is going to be one of them. You are right about bystanders, etc. I am only advocating a shot if it is a safe shot considering all other factors.

All of this talk about waiting until a guy points his gun at you and such makes me cringe because all of you who advocate that are already dead.
 
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