lets say im at wal mart and some crazy person.....

Status
Not open for further replies.
Shoot him only to be shot by his bud that you didnt see? Most robberies of this nature are for money, they are scared, nervous and jumpy, holding a gun. No I will pull back, draw the weapon, let the guy get his money and leave. If he doesnt leave and wants to get nutso? this is up to each individual, some may be able to intervene, others may not wish this. Cant say they are cowards etc.

In Nebr, a group of guys went into a bank and shot them all up, happened very fast, not enough time to even react from the stories I read.

A client of mine had robbers come over the counter and hold guns to their heads, they took the money and left. What would you have done there?

When someone has a gun on another person, that person could get shot real quick, how would you feel about it if you attempted to intervene, that person was killed (the innocent) you shot the perp but the person was still dead? Killing another isnt all that easy. I do not recommend it.
 
Up here, where there is no such thing as CCW, using a toy gun while committing a robbery is still armed robbery. Our cops whined enough about Airsoft toys, et al being too realistic looking that replica firearms are illegal. Not that criminals or stupid kids worry about that.
I'd be concerned about Wally World having a fit about you having a legally carried firearm in their shop in the first place.
 
So...a guy already has his pistol out and the finger on the trigger...you ask him to drop his weapon...he can fire his weapon at least twice, if not more, before you can react fast enough to fire yours. If the guy already has his weapon out in a threatening manner all you are doing is giving him more time to do more damage if you command him to drop his weapon.
Click to expand...

Not really, If you have your gun on him, aimed and ready; you got the big advantage because he now has to react to your action. He is no longer paying attention to the robbery, he is paying attention to the man with the gun beside him. He is reacting, not you. If your standing to his side (I say your to his side because the only person in front of him is the cashier.), he has to turn and ether point or reaquire his sight picture. If he starts to turn SHOOT. The reason is your life is in danger now. Remember your first job as a law abiding CCW citizen and an LEO is to preserve life. If you can come out of a scary situation without any one being harm it is a good thing. If the guy listens and puts the gun down great. If the guy runs with or without the money great. If you HAD to shoot him, make sure that you HAD to shoot him because someone is going to try to make it look like you didn't have to.
Make Sense?

I'd be concerned about Wally World having a fit about you having a legally carried firearm in their shop in the first place.
Click to expand...
In Pennslyvania, they can only ask me to leave. If they ask me to leave, I don't want to be there anyways.

No I will pull back, draw the weapon, let the guy get his money and leave. If he doesnt leave and wants to get nutso? this is up to each individual, some may be able to intervene, others may not wish this. Cant say they are cowards etc.
Click to expand...

Well said:)
 
If you have your gun on him, aimed and ready; you got the big advantage because he now has to react to your action.
Click to expand...

Wrong. You are STILL waiting to react to HIS action, even if you have the draw on him and order him to drop his weapon, etc. See? Everything depends on what HE does, which means YOU are reacting to him.

By the way, all good advice about waiting and seeing what the guy will do, etc...if that is what you choose to do. I was trying to make the point that if you shoot the guy given all factors make it a safe shoot(bystanders, etc.) you are a LEGAL hero in my book. I wasn't saying you HAVE to shoot him, just that if you do it is a "good" shoot.

he has to turn and ether point or reaquire his sight picture. If he starts to turn SHOOT
Click to expand...

You are dead. Yes, you might get a shot off before dying but he will still get a shot into you. If he turns quickly and shoots, you can't react quickly enough to stop him before he gets a shot off.
 
Wrong. You are STILL waiting to react to HIS action, even if you have the draw on him and order him to drop his weapon, etc. See? Everything depends on what HE does, which means YOU are reacting to him.
Click to expand...

Ok you need to react by pulling the trigger. He needs to react by turning, pointing at least and pulling the trigger. Her is the question I pose. Who has more things to do?

You are dead. Yes, you might get a shot off before dying but he will still get a shot into you. If he turns quickly and shoots, you can't react quickly enough to stop him before he gets a shot off.
Click to expand...


If someone can turn and shoot in the time it takes me to just shoot, I suck.
 
You aren't getting my point. He is ACTING. By the time you realize he is turning and start to squeeze your trigger, he is already capping a round off. He KNOWS what he is going to do, you don't. Therefore, he is acting and you are REACTING, no matter how you try to spin it.

Try it with a friend sometime and use squirt guns. One of you play the bad guy and one play the good guy. Set up those scenarios and see if you can get a shot off soon enough to stop him. I'll place money on the fact that you can't.

It has nothing to do with you "sucking", although you might. :) It is just a fact. I was at a seminar once where there were about 1000 LEO's from different departments. The "legal" instructor gets up and asks for two volunteers. He gives them both cap guns. The bad guy is known to be armed and is fleeing, his back to you, having just committed a known felony involving the use or threatened use of deadly force. The gun he has is not visible in his hands so is assumed to be tucked in his waist band. The "officer" has drawn down on him and orders him to stop. He doesn't, but his hands are no longer in sight. the instructor asks if you can shoot him now. The five of us from my department raised our hands. The bad guy then reached for his waist band and the instructor inquired again...a couple more officers raised their hands. The bad guy then pulls a gun from his waist band and starts to turn around...about a dozen more officers raised their hands. The bad guy then turns completely around and points the gun at the officer...everyone else raised their hands. the instructor then said, congratulation...everyone is dead except for the original five who raised their hands. he then ran through the same scenario at full speed and the bad guy got the shot off first every single time! Sometimes, the shots were near simultaneous, but in those instnaces both guys were shot and the point is for the good guy to keep from being shot.
 
IMO:
Most of the advice in this thread is nonsensical and (imho) pathetic. Especially by the members with over 500 posts to their credit.

Wait till the guy shoots someone to act ???? What is that. There are no laws are mandates that say you have to let a criminal kill or injure someone before you act. No jury would work on that premise. I doubt any instructor would advocate this. I would deem anyone that waited like that, a coward, and very poor judgement.

redworm: You draw when there is an imminent and clear threat to life.
Click to expand...

A guy wipping out a gun and pointing it at people so he can commit a felony crime is not imminent and clear danger???

If the guy threatens the teller with a screwdriver, I am acting as quick as possible, while doing everything possible to not screw it up. If a guy pulls a gun that looks remotely real, and he gives me a small window of opportunity, I am blowing him away.

"You're not a LEO" ???? What does that have to do with anything? Since when is a leo the only one with a moral or social obligation to stop a criminal? I can outshoot and have more physical and tactical skills than alot of leo's. Most leo's I talk to can't even tell me what caliber weapon they have. You always see videos or pictures of cops with their finger on a trigger when they are not on target. Leo's are primarily there to report on a crime already committed. Stopping a crime is not the exclusive obligation of a leo.

I know in Indiana, I would be legally clear.

If I kill a criminal with a rap sheet and a gun, then there is one more puke off the street, and legally I am clear. If I kill a criminal with a toy gun, that is his problem resulting from his stupidity. If me and other witnesses can show a clear and present danger, I am clear legally.

If I wait for the puke to kill some young girl, then innocent blood has spilled that might have been avoided. I live my whole life questioning myself.

If you tell him to put down his weapon, you just gave him a good chance to kill you or someone else. If you wait for him to jump over the counter and put the screwdriver up to the teller's throat, you now have a much more difficult dangerous situation and a moving target. You ARE NOT OBLIGATED to put yourself and others in more danger. If you can kill him with minimal danger to other people - I will do it as soon as he shows serious intnent to injure or kill someone.

LEO's are much more obligated to tell a bg to STOP and "put the gun down" before they shoot, not civilians. Criminals are not scared of cops, they are MUCH MORE scared of civilians and homeowners because we can blow their as**s away without warning and get away with it.

If you people feel you are unable to intercede, that is fine, I find no fault in that. But don't advise soemone else that may feel they are capable to watch innocent blood spilled, and give a bunch of empty excuses why they should do nothing...
 
In Georgia, we have a shoot first law.

Which means, if someone is holding up someone with a firearm and demanding money, I can shoot him without ever telling him to drop his weapon.
Click to expand...

I am not an attorney, but I'll bet that reason would standup in most states that allows ccw!

If I have clear and immenent danger, I hope I will act.
 
OK...two more cents....

This bantering of "what I would do" in that situation must be kept in perspective... as one sees a dangerous situation, another sees it a different way and each has their interpretation of threat and abilities to deal with that threat.

Just because the law (remember "law" is a collective term that is only a representation of a societal value at a given time... it is not absolute) may be on your side does not mean that you will not be prosecuted criminally and ESPECIALLY in a civil court. Let me 'splain.... all you need is to be in a situation where you shot someone (or even just threatened them to drop the gun, etc.) and you run into the strong possibility that the police officer(s), their supervisors, district attorney, judges, etc. will not see it your way and will proceed with prosecution. The point here is that just because the "law" may be favorable to you, you are not free of prosecution. You will go broke defending yourself. Don't believe me? Ask the Duke Lacrosse players. And 10 times that for a civil trial, though I'll wager most folks don't even know the difference between criminal and civil trials.

As said before, drawing your weapon should be the LAST choice. The last CCW course I took gave sage advice... always verbally challenge before shooting (if you can), YOU are the defense, the gun is just a tool. And no matter what happens, the burden of proof will be on you to convince a whole lot of people that your life was in imminent danger. And even if you can, be prepared to go broke doing it.
 
HiPowerGuy said:
And no matter what happens, the burden of proof will be on you to convince a whole lot of people that your life was in imminent danger.
Click to expand...
In the original scenario, we have you, witnessing a BG pulling a gun on a cashier.

That and that alone meets the criteria of a clear and present danger. Perhaps not to you, but certainly to the cashier!

I may or may not use the command voice (Stop! | Freeze! | Drop that gun!), it all depends upon the situation. But. I am not the police and I am not dependent upon their rules. I am just a citizen who actually have more perogatives than a LEO. Because the danger is clear and immanent, I. Can. Simply. Shoot. The. BG.

I am assuming, of course, that I have a clear target and that no innocents are in the line of fire.

Now I know what the Store wants you to do... The same that they want their cashiers to do: Give the man what he wants and he will go away. Regardless of whether or not the BG shoots anyone, the Store will pay out less. That's their bottom line. Their cashier (or customers) are an insurance concern only. Their lives are worth what the liability insurance says they're worth. Fifteen years in retail management taught me this.

What you do in the given scenario is what you will do. As far as I'm concerned, the BG won't even know what's coming.
 
SLOMountaineer, Mattro, Antipitas, and others. I know what you are all trying to say, and I agree. The bad guys need to be dealt with. They deserve to be delt with, and I know myself well enough to know that reguardless of my misgivings, I would most likely intervene.

BUT, there are factors that must be addressed. Is the way clear? Will you assuredly STOP the threat by your actions, or will you put everyone else in danger or get someone killed by reacting to this scenario? I know those are valid questions the prosecution will ask at your trial.

And what if you miss? What if he doesn't drop? What if he has an accomplice you didn't see? You open fire, and a firefight ensues, and lots of people are dead or wounded, maybe you too. If this happens, it IS going to be argued in court that YOU, a NON LEO, acted like a RAMBO or a VIGILANTE, and opened fire "FIRST, thereby causeing everything that went after.

After all, the guy was just going to get the money and run right? That is what is going to be presented to a jury, and you are most likely going to jail, and for LONGER than the guy who robbed the place to begin with, if he survives.

I know this sucks, and that commo sense and comon decency should prevail, but when have you EVER known ANY law to even touch the remotest boundries of common sense?

Could I stand there, knowing I have a gun, and watch someone die, if I honestly though he was going to shoot? NO. But the current law will NOT let you justify, in some states, drawing down on a BG, and shooting him, in the scenario mentioned. I know it sucks, and badly, but it IS the WAY THE LAW WORKS. That is why we must work so hard, and so tirelessly, to change it.....
 
Look what I found, it's even funner here in Arizona then N.Y.!

13-413. No civil liability for justified conduct

No person in this state shall be subject to civil liability for engaging in conduct otherwise justified pursuant to the provisions of this chapter.

kenny b
 
Antipitas said:
"I may or may not use the command voice (Stop! | Freeze! | Drop that gun!), it all depends upon the situation. But. I am not the police and I am not dependent upon their rules. I am just a citizen who actually have more perogatives than a LEO. Because the danger is clear and immanent, I. Can. Simply. Shoot. The. BG."

I go back to my original reply, you must know the gun laws in your locations as this changes from state to state. There is a world of difference between carrying in Idaho versus Massachusetts, for example.
 
Antipitas, Awesome post! Glad to see someone tht posts alot here shows what I consider common sense.

Derius_T, I understand what your saying. The problem is too many people here look for all the reasons to NOT act. Their immediate reaction is be a good witness. Don't do anything unles YOU are in danger. Don't do anything till the bg kills someone. Don't do anything cause there is a remote chance of legal liability. Of couse there are variables specific to each situation, but I hate the kneejerk reaction to do nothing...

If the variables remotely allow - be a man, save a life, stop evil. (imo)

In life it's always alot easier to do nothing...
 
After all, the guy was just going to get the money and run right? That is what is going to be presented to a jury, and you are most likely going to jail, and for LONGER than the guy who robbed the place to begin with, if he survives.
Click to expand...

Quit taking the bad guy's word! Bottom line: Guy has a gun and is threatening someone with it. All things considered, if it is safe to take a shot, do it! Otherwise, what are you even packing for? Leave the piece at home. The rest of your statement is wrong. If you shoot a dude who is threatening someone with a gun, you are NOT going to jail for a long time, I don't care what state you live in, including the state of confusion.
 
I know I am in the comfort of my own home so I can play armchair hero all day, but is there any room in this scenario for de-escalation. So the BG has pointed a gun in a cashiers face and you decided to ccw that day. Is there any point in this scenario where the BG can be disarmed without having to be dragged to the morgue? I would imagine that not every BG is pumped full of PCP and might possibly surrender if you got the drop on him/ her.
 
There is a reason it is called the errornet

You are under no obligation to wait for him to start shooting (in Fla at least)
Brandishing a gun while making demands for money is called armed robbery which is a forcible felony which is justification to use deadly force

Having the gun out while threatening others is a imminent threat to yourself or others which justifies the used of deadly force

There is no obligation to give away your position or intent by yelling stop, especially before you have your gun trained on him
I'll shoot him in the back if his back is to me if that is what it takes

I get so sick of hearing this old "your not a LEO" argument
Every citizen has the right to stop a crime in commission and the obligation to do so (my opinion)if they can safely without causing more harm
It's called being a member of a community

In short if a guy pulls a gun and starts threatening and demanding money and has not notice me or has diverted his attention away from me
I'll put one in his ear without warning if I can and whether it is later determined that he has a Deagle or an Airsoft I will sleep soundly in my own bed that night
 
I am leaving with this. I don't want to shoot someone if I don't have to. It seems some people think it is ok to shoot without saying anything. Go ahead but make sure you got a good lawyer because the bad guy or his family is going to try and make it look like he was only stealing to survive and sue you. My goal is always to try and save life not take it. If you have the nerve to shoot someone without yelling something while your gun is trained on him, you have no right to be carrying. If you just want to kill someone legally, get help. Watch Clint Smith on PDTV. He always yells stop a split second before he shoots.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top