Large Dog at the door!
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lease tell me that you're not picking on a typo John
There are several points being argued here by the different posters
Legally yes you can shoot an attacking dog even if you are negligently but not illegally on it's property
Legally yes you are responsible for any damages caused by your dog even if the person is negligently but not illegally on your property
If you knock on the wrong door of a duplex you are at the wrong address and are negligently at that address, but probably not illegally
If your profession requires that you knock on people's doors you should make sure you are at the right address and not negligently on someone else's property, whether legal or not
Failing that you should not complain about the property's guardian barking at you through a properly secured door
Street are numbered in a certain way
Odd on one side even on the other they also ascend in a set interval.
My wife was always amazed that I could pick out the address that I was looking for as soon as i pulled onto the street
There are always exceptions but they usually occur in the country or commercial areas
I have never seen a residential street that did not follow this pattern
There are several points being argued here by the different posters
Legally yes you can shoot an attacking dog even if you are negligently but not illegally on it's property
Legally yes you are responsible for any damages caused by your dog even if the person is negligently but not illegally on your property
If you knock on the wrong door of a duplex you are at the wrong address and are negligently at that address, but probably not illegally
If your profession requires that you knock on people's doors you should make sure you are at the right address and not negligently on someone else's property, whether legal or not
Failing that you should not complain about the property's guardian barking at you through a properly secured door
Street are numbered in a certain way
Odd on one side even on the other they also ascend in a set interval.
My wife was always amazed that I could pick out the address that I was looking for as soon as i pulled onto the street
There are always exceptions but they usually occur in the country or commercial areas
I have never seen a residential street that did not follow this pattern
No it means that he did not check to make sure he had the right address
I know it's boring in dead horse beating threads like this but if you are going to take on a certain poster you really should read all of that posters comment
If you had you would see that I did catch that in his original post and rejected it
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rantingredneck
New member
It's kinda hard to see where the poster was negligent if the houses weren't clearly marked. I also didn't take his original post as being a complaint about a barking dog but a "what if" scenario as in "what if that flimsy screen door didn't hold".
Posted by Joab:
Ok, I went back and reread all your posts again, and the only thing I saw was you saying he was at the wrong house because he knocked on the wrong door. I was simply pointing out why he was at the wrong door.
Let me ask what you would have done in his situation since you have experience as you have stated. You get a service call to come to a duplex. When you arrive, the doors are side by side, but not clearly marked. Do you knock on one of the doors to see if its the right place, or do you attempt to call your client so that they can identify which door it is? On top of that, what if you dont have a cell phone, or your place of employment does not allow you to use it during working hours? I know thats a rarity these days, but there are some people who dont. Do you drive back to the office to call them?
Dont get me wrong. I am in no way advocating shooting a dog that is just defending its domain unless you are in physical danger for your own life.
Ok, I went back and reread all your posts again, and the only thing I saw was you saying he was at the wrong house because he knocked on the wrong door. I was simply pointing out why he was at the wrong door.
Let me ask what you would have done in his situation since you have experience as you have stated. You get a service call to come to a duplex. When you arrive, the doors are side by side, but not clearly marked. Do you knock on one of the doors to see if its the right place, or do you attempt to call your client so that they can identify which door it is? On top of that, what if you dont have a cell phone, or your place of employment does not allow you to use it during working hours? I know thats a rarity these days, but there are some people who dont. Do you drive back to the office to call them?
Dont get me wrong. I am in no way advocating shooting a dog that is just defending its domain unless you are in physical danger for your own life.
Although I carry, I'd be reluctant to shoot a charging dog given a) the speed of the animal and b) the small size of the target area (regardless of breed). You'd have to possess really good reflexes and be a really good shot. A charging dog does not present the same target area as an upright or semi-upright person. If you miss the dog, you are still in trouble from the dog attack and have now increased the likelihood of adding more troubles to your day (or life).
I have heard, but have never witnessed, stories about stopping dogs with ammonia sprayed from a simple spray bottle. From what I've heard, a blast of ammonia to the face will dissuade just about any dog. You'd have to figure out some way to carry it, but at least you could carry it unconcealed, meaning it would be easier to get to. Maybe you could Velcro the thing to your belt. Plus, you won't look threatening to other people if you rest your hand on your spray bottle as you approach a door. Most people will think you're just resting your hand; they won't see the spray bottle as a means of self-defense.
As for wrong doors, I'm not aware of any law that says you forfeit your right to self-defense if you approach a wrong door.
I have heard, but have never witnessed, stories about stopping dogs with ammonia sprayed from a simple spray bottle. From what I've heard, a blast of ammonia to the face will dissuade just about any dog. You'd have to figure out some way to carry it, but at least you could carry it unconcealed, meaning it would be easier to get to. Maybe you could Velcro the thing to your belt. Plus, you won't look threatening to other people if you rest your hand on your spray bottle as you approach a door. Most people will think you're just resting your hand; they won't see the spray bottle as a means of self-defense.
As for wrong doors, I'm not aware of any law that says you forfeit your right to self-defense if you approach a wrong door.
rantingredneck
New member
Let me first say that I agree with you up to a point.
It is difficult to hit a charging dog with a handgun. It's also difficult to hit a charging knife wielding coked up assailant COM under stress. It's also difficult to hit the vital area on a charging grizzly bear using a .454 Ruger Alaskan or similar gun. But in those last two scenarios no one would tell you not to shoot. Your life and health are at risk in all three scenarios, though, even though the last is an extreme example (and I knew that when I posted it.) But these are the situations that we spend countless hours and rounds of ammunition (or we should be at least) at the range practicing for if we are planning to carry a weapon.
Also the target area on a large breed dog, I'm thinking 60lbs plus here, is not that small when you think about it. We're not talking about shooting a golf ball sized target here but more like a 6x6 or 8x8 total frontal target area here taking into account the head and chest areas. In the case of the dog that attacked me the frontal target area would have been more like 10x10 or 12x12, he was a big fella.
The gun also gives you another option of getting the locked jaws of the dog off of you at contact distances and can theoretically reduce the severity of the bite wounds you end up with. Place the weapon at contact range over the dogs heart and fire to slidelock if that's what it takes to get the animal off you.
I'm not saying a gun is the only option against a charging/attacking dog. Obviously it can be handled empty handed in some circumstances or I wouldn't be sitting here (see previous post). If OC works, great. If harsh language and posturing works (I've had to do that once too, in my own backyard!
) that's fine too. But if you have a gun available and your life and limb are at risk, I say use it appropriately if safe to do so.I am not sure how this thread got so far off of the original topic but I used to be in charge of a mapping crew for an electric company. One of my employees was out working and a very large bulldog came out of nowhere at him. He pulled out his dog spray and hit the dog in the face just like the directions said and the dog stopped right in its tracks. It then proceeded to shake its head like in the cartoons and started charging again. The fellow was able to make it back to the truck and jump in the back before being bitten.
We ran across many dogs in the mapping process and it was impossible to contact all owners before going on their property but as we usually had easements we did have the right of ingress and egress. We were very careful of "Beware of Dog" signs and fenced yards but they didn't always provide adequate notice. We also had the vehicles clearly marked and notices put in the paper about our work and what areas we would be working in but some would still be surprised at our presense.
If you knock on someone's door in the middle of the afternoon even if it is the wrong door you have the expectation that you are not going to get attacked by either a dog or its owner unless you have been given plenty of warning such as signs and fences. Once you are attacked you don't give up the right to defend yourself just because you knocked on the wrong door. But just be sure you are being atttacked and not just trheatened. If a dog comes through the screen on to you it is time to defend yourself. Whether you use a gun, knife or bare hands depends on the circumstances but if that dog came through the screen you better be finding something.
We ran across many dogs in the mapping process and it was impossible to contact all owners before going on their property but as we usually had easements we did have the right of ingress and egress. We were very careful of "Beware of Dog" signs and fenced yards but they didn't always provide adequate notice. We also had the vehicles clearly marked and notices put in the paper about our work and what areas we would be working in but some would still be surprised at our presense.
If you knock on someone's door in the middle of the afternoon even if it is the wrong door you have the expectation that you are not going to get attacked by either a dog or its owner unless you have been given plenty of warning such as signs and fences. Once you are attacked you don't give up the right to defend yourself just because you knocked on the wrong door. But just be sure you are being atttacked and not just trheatened. If a dog comes through the screen on to you it is time to defend yourself. Whether you use a gun, knife or bare hands depends on the circumstances but if that dog came through the screen you better be finding something.
CrazyIvan007
New member
If a dog is too small to attack the torso, a grown adult should be able to overpower the dog physically. Grab it by the throat and hold its head to the floor. My mom has worked for an animal hospital since I was very young. We have had many dogs and I used to go with her to work when I was a kid. She works at night, so it was just her.
I've learned that small dogs like poodles and ****zus can easily be lifted by the scruff and are unable to do anything about it. Small-Medium dogs can be grabbed by the throat and held to the floor. Large dogs...well, run and lock a door behind you or shoot em If you can't, then just find something to hit them with. But, large dogs won't generally go for your legs if they are intent on full attack. They will go for your upper body or throat and face. If they go for your leg, usually these are just nervous-aggressive dogs and kicking at them will make them run away.
I'm not saying you CAN'T shoot, I'm just saying that when it comes to dogs, in the OP's situation, he may have a better option. His reaction time with a spray bottle can be faster because he doesn't have to carry concealed. Nor does he have any worries about what happens if he misses. Given a dog's much more sensitive sense of smell (something like 400 times that of a human), a blast of ammonia would be that much more effective than a similar blast to a person's face. Plus, if that dog inhales the ammonia (as I suspect it would), the lungs are filled with ammonia, not oxygen. The dog will need to expel the ammonia and get oxygen. Even if the dog does not quit the fight completely, it may be put off long enough to get at your weapon and get a better shot.
Yes, we train for sudden-rampage scenarios, but if you can give yourself an edge, take it.
It seems to me that an ammonia spray bottle is not a good choice against BGs because BGs do not necessarily need to make physical contact with you. Even if you blast someone in the face, a BG can use his arms to get at you. So an ammonia bottle against a BG is a poor choice. However, it also seems to me that a dog's primary means of harming you is its teeth, and that requires physical contact. A blast of ammonia can hit the dog before it makes contact.
It boils down to which tool is better for the situation. Against dogs, a spray bottle may be a good first choice, with your concealed carry as a good backup.
rantingredneck
New member
I can't say I disagree with any of that. I think you and I are just about on the same page of the same playbook here. The ammonia thing is good info. Makes intuitive sense when you think about it, but I had never thought about it. I do carry OC (most of the time) in addition to my carry weapon, so non-lethal options are there for me for both two legged and four legged threats.
I don't feel like rereading everything so I will take your word and apologize I thought I had addressed the point better
What you pointed out was the excuse given for being at the wrong door not the reason he was actually at the wrong door
The other duplexes will be similarly marked
A on the left and B on the right if the share the same physical address
If they have their own individual numbers they will follow in a sequence as almost every other street in America does
Even on one side odd on the other there will usually be the same incremental numbering system on the entire street
!02, 104, 106 or a similar system
If unsure I will back up or drive around the block, but I have usually noted the sequence as I am driving down the street looking for my address
Never in 25 years did I do that
I was always afraid that someone may have a dog or something that wouldn't like it if I surprised it
That's what I do these days
I'd say it is even less than rare, it is a necessary tool of the trade these days
And no I never drove back to the office in the old days. But I have been known to use a pay phone
And don't get me wrong
I am in no way advocating that you should let yourself be used as a chew toy just because you are in it's domain.
After all the worst that can happen to you is that you get sued and possibly a six month vacation
What I am saying is that as a professional whose job it is to go to private residences it is your duty as a professional to insure that you are at the correct address
I am also saying that a dog that reacts to a stranger at the door is in no way proven to be a dangerous dog as proclaimed with great excitement by the OP
I also believe that he would be better served learning how to find the correct address than try to figure out how to justify carrying and shooting the dog
Yankee Doodle
New member
OK, I've read enough of this nonsense. If you are attacked by a dog, in the yard, on the steps, in the elevator, in the woods, anywhere, you have the right to defend yourself. If you knock on the wrong door, and a dog attacks you, you have the right to defend yourself. Actually, unless you are in the act of commiting a crime in the dog owners home, or attacking the owner or his family, you have the right to defend yourself. No jury in the country is going to punish you for defending yourself against a dog attack unless you were intentionally breaking the law at the time. Knocking on the wrong door is not a crime. I think the only law you might be in conflict with is discharging a firearm within city limits, if it exists in your town.
Now, this is just my opinion based on a whole lot of years as a working cop. I may be wrong in your State.
I just think that common sense has to prevail. So, common sense tells me that if I am attacked by a dog, I have the right to defend myself.
End of vent.
Now, this is just my opinion based on a whole lot of years as a working cop. I may be wrong in your State.
I just think that common sense has to prevail. So, common sense tells me that if I am attacked by a dog, I have the right to defend myself.
End of vent.
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rantingredneck
New member
I'd think you'd be covered there as well if you're legally carrying the weapon and it's a legitimate case of SD, whether from dog or man. I can see a prosecutor charging you if they are anti 2A and just want to be a butt about it, but I can't see it going to a guilty verdict.
kristop64089
New member
I wasn't going to add anymore to this, But...and this is a big butt. I do not know how innocent you will look opening fire in a private residence that is not your own.
C'mon guys, Collateral damage in this situation is huge. The dog is not going to present itsaelf as a good target, for long if at all. You will be firing in a very awkward, if not running defensive position.
Dog catchers, postman, ups, guys....the list goes on, do the research. When was the last time you have heard of one of them gunning down a dog In fear?
They are all issued chemical weapons. Thats what they are instructed to use.
I'm not saying you need to be attacked, But gunning down a dog on a strangers doorstep is Irresponsible.
I carry everyday, and I don't know how I would respond in this situation for sure. But I also know I can't shoot a rabbit on the run w/ my .22 S&W, and I'm a good shot. In that scenario, fear and adrenaline are in control, and judgment will suffer. You've got to be able to think past the dog. If that shot misses and you kill someone nearby...you my friend are SOL
C'mon guys, Collateral damage in this situation is huge. The dog is not going to present itsaelf as a good target, for long if at all. You will be firing in a very awkward, if not running defensive position.
Dog catchers, postman, ups, guys....the list goes on, do the research. When was the last time you have heard of one of them gunning down a dog In fear?
They are all issued chemical weapons. Thats what they are instructed to use.
I'm not saying you need to be attacked, But gunning down a dog on a strangers doorstep is Irresponsible.
I carry everyday, and I don't know how I would respond in this situation for sure. But I also know I can't shoot a rabbit on the run w/ my .22 S&W, and I'm a good shot. In that scenario, fear and adrenaline are in control, and judgment will suffer. You've got to be able to think past the dog. If that shot misses and you kill someone nearby...you my friend are SOL
rantingredneck
New member
If faced with the choice between only the two options, though which would you choose? Granted the OP has received some good advice in this thread about non-lethal options and I agree they should be the first option if available. But if unavailable or they are used and they fail, then what?
Not many people can, I can't either. But we're talking about a much bigger animal that will be running toward you and not away from you, thus becoming a larger and larger target instead of a smaller and smaller one. Much different scenario. Eventually, you'll be at contact distance with the animal. May have to take a bite before using your CCW, but it's a better way to get the animal off you than bareknuckles brawling IMO.
I haven't seen anybody yet advocate opening fire inside someone's home and I think the OP was talking about the dog breaking through the door with the actual contact and possible use of the weapon being on the front porch or in the front yard given time to retreat that far, which I think would be pretty instinctive.
You run that same risk of the missed shot and innocent bystanders in any use of your CCW. Responsibility in your carry means practice, practice, and more practice and situational awareness to include awareness of what is beyond your target whether it happens to be two legged or four legged.
If you think about it, shooting at a dog at a downward angle with the ground or a wooden deck as a backstop is probably less risky than firing at a goblin trying to rob you in a city environment with brick walls, concrete sidewalks and such that more readily present ricochet risks. Not saying a bullet can't ricochet off the dirt but.....
Edward429451
Moderator
Aw c'mon guys, thats jus' a inspector feeling the rush of power...
Just kiddin, I deal with the inspectors so had to say that. I go to a lot of different homes doing hvac & plbg and I wouldn't dream of shooting someones dog that was attacking me. I've had to hold the screen door shut to stop dogs, I've had to run like the wind and jump the fence cuz they came around the side of the house as I was on my way up the walk, and I've been bit three times now. Always the ankle biters and never a big dog.
Our resident inspector may not have been doing this long...Jiggle the fence gate, make noise, whistle, "here boy!" all that stuff. Never been bit doing it that way. It's always the harmless little ones that the customer assures me wouldn't hurt a fly...
I hit one with a 14" pipe wrench once lol. I asked her 3 times to put him up and she kept laughing how harmless he was and then he bit me. YELP!! She put him up without another word.
Just kiddin, I deal with the inspectors so had to say that. I go to a lot of different homes doing hvac & plbg and I wouldn't dream of shooting someones dog that was attacking me. I've had to hold the screen door shut to stop dogs, I've had to run like the wind and jump the fence cuz they came around the side of the house as I was on my way up the walk, and I've been bit three times now. Always the ankle biters and never a big dog.
Our resident inspector may not have been doing this long...Jiggle the fence gate, make noise, whistle, "here boy!" all that stuff. Never been bit doing it that way. It's always the harmless little ones that the customer assures me wouldn't hurt a fly...
I hit one with a 14" pipe wrench once lol. I asked her 3 times to put him up and she kept laughing how harmless he was and then he bit me. YELP!! She put him up without another word.
kristop64089
New member
We cannot plan this scenario.
There is no right answer, We can only hope that if the time arrives we can use our heads.
The collateral damage I speak of is outside the home. In fact I would venture a guess that it is greater. You can't shoot the dog just because he is rushing you. I have been rushed dozens of times, only at the last minute does the dog back down. (it's the ALPHA male syndrome). Was I scared, hell yeah!. Would I have shot, Hell no!...You are technically being attacked, till he is touching you.
Like I said, there is not going to be one answer to beat all. So from here on out, I will agree to disagree.
There is no right answer, We can only hope that if the time arrives we can use our heads.
The collateral damage I speak of is outside the home. In fact I would venture a guess that it is greater. You can't shoot the dog just because he is rushing you. I have been rushed dozens of times, only at the last minute does the dog back down. (it's the ALPHA male syndrome). Was I scared, hell yeah!. Would I have shot, Hell no!...You are technically being attacked, till he is touching you.
Like I said, there is not going to be one answer to beat all. So from here on out, I will agree to disagree.
rantingredneck
New member
That I'll wholeheartedly agree with. There's no one right answer. I will say though that to completely rule out shooting the dog is a dangerous mindset IMO. Coming from someone who's gone hand to hand with one of the largest of the large breed dogs, in retrospect I'd have loved to have at least the option of a .380 or small 9mm in my pocket that day. I was about a halfsecond away from using the blade I was carrying to end that particular dog's life. Had he not gone limp from the punching I would have. That would have likely caused him to fight harder as I was cutting though, possibly incurring more damage to my already damaged arm. A bullet may have been a more immediate stopper and less likely to escalate the dog's actions. This last bit is of course total conjecture and "what-iffing" on my part and I'm aware of that, but it's based on the experience and memory of that day too.