Large Dog at the door!

Mags, in the senario you describe, my humble opinion points toward non lethal measures: sprays or blunt objects (I like the pipe wrench comment!). In general, unless I'm being attacked by a pack, I feel that a dog is not going to cause me death. Quite likely a bit of physical trauma, yes, but I feel I can win a fight between myself and a K-9 (hope my flame suit holds up here). In your senario, I would be carrying anyway for those bad parts of town where two legged creatures are concerning my well being, but would not produce that weapon otherwise.


Also, consider the homeowner you are servicing here. Suppose they're all the way in the back room when you ring their doorbell, and they are unable to get their dog before it gets to you. Most folks on here are very proud of their guard dogs, and have them because of their ability to sink teeth into people who enter their territory. How are they going to react to you when you kill Fluffy or Bowser? You may need a reload handy for your carry gun if a homeowner sees you shoot his dog, because I'd personally be up in arms if that happened to me at my house! ;)
 
I think the meaning is more than clear--he says he wouldn't even DRAW if the dog was "behind a door".
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Matter of opinion I guess

Either way the many suggestions toward non lethal measures are appropriate
If your dog bursts out of the house and attacks someone who has a right to be in your front yard
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According to the same post that you reference he was at the wrong door so he actually had no real invitation or right to be there,

With a little more experience he probably will make that mistake less often
 
Matter of opinion I guess
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Not really. He flat out states he wouldn't even draw for a dog behind a door. If he doesn't draw he certainly can't shoot.
According to the same post that you reference he was at the wrong door so he actually had no real invitation or right to be there,
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Are you really saying that no one has a right to be standing at your front door unless you invite them to your house? That if someone ends up at your door instead of your neighbor's that it's ok for your dog to break through the door and attack him?
 
I am certain that Mass laws allow you to kill a dog that attacks you *off* of his owner's property, but not sure what the deal would be when on - see P.S. below.

As a practical matter, if a dangerous dog (of whatever breed *lol*) truely goes for me and is clearly going to make contact (or has already), I would use whatever force is necessary to defend myself. No one is obligated to be a chewtoy just because they arrive at the front door of a negligent dog owner who can't control his animal.

If you want to try nonlethal/less lethal options, they should arouse less ire/liability in use - there is the taser/electric baton, the pepper spray/bear spray. I doubt that many mailmen/fedex guys are carrying handguns, but surely they face the same dangers.

P.S. As I read it, it looks like you could kill a dog attacking you on the front porch or in the front yard, see:
http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusmast136A_175.htm#s156
 
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JohnKSa, Thanks for the deffensive help here. I'm not a sadist and out to shoot at any little threat. I'm talking about having that dog get loose and start physically attacking. What I've learned from you guys here is that using a gun probably isnt the best option. Also using a gun while workomg for the town probably isnt a good idea. Seems to me that most of you are saying that if the dog attacked, thats its ok, because I was on your property. If I were to draw my gun while the dog is latched to my leg ripping my calf off and shot it dead you would be extremely upset and press charges.
1. I wasnt tresspassing. I was asked to come to the home for an inspection.
2. I was acting in self deffense in fear of my life.
3. I used the weapon as a last resort, after trying to flee.

If you ask me, its pretty clear what i am trying to say here. I understand that we all love our dogs but its also our job to keep them under control.
 
"My dogs do the same thing when the doorbell rings, hope no one ever shoots them for it."

I have a dog too! Given the demeanor in which it was acting, if that door wasnt there, he was attacking!! I'm not talking about a barking dog, just being disturbed by a door bell. This dog is dangerous!
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But the door was there and the dog did not attack you. Your assuming that he is dangerous or would attack is conjecture.
My dogs also charge the door and bark viciously when someone knocks or rings the doorbell. That's their job... to warn strangers away and protect. Once I answer the door they calm down.


Jim
 
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I was at a duplex, two front doors about 4 feet apart. Same porch, same yard.

Thanks Carbinecaleb for re-iterateing what Ive been trying to say all along.

This has gotten completely silly, I can see I cant win here. I just hope that none of your dogs attacks an innocent person on or off your property and causes harm.
 
Not really. He flat out states he wouldn't even draw for a dog behind a door. If he doesn't draw he certainly can't shoot.
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OK fine I was trying to be polite but since you insist
There wasn't so much as the implication that he even considered the idea of shooting it through the door.
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Perhaps you can show us exactly which post accuses him of planning to shoot through the door
I see comment about shooting the dog on his property and one about being in proximity to the door
I guess Fremmer's comment could possibly be seen as shooting into the house

Are you really saying that no one has a right to be standing at your front door unless you invite them to your house?
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My house? Most definitely
That if someone ends up at your door instead of your neighbor's that it's ok for your dog to break through the door and attack him?
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It is perfectly acceptable for my dog to react to that unexpected stranger at the door the same perfectly acceptable way this dog reacted to an unexpected stranger at the door


I was at a duplex, two front doors about 4 feet apart. Same porch, same yard.
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But the dog did not react to your being on the same porch or in the same yard you stated that the dog reacted to your knock on the wrong door
It is your responsibility to insure that you are at the correct address, it's really not that hard

I just hope that none of your dogs attacks an innocent person on or off your property and causes harm.
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You mean like this dog did :rolleyes:
 
Here's a different direction to look at it...

I'm home in the back... my big or small dog is barking at the front (see through screen or glass door)... I walk to the front to see who and what it is... there's a guy standing on my front porch with a gun drawn!

Keep in mind there are very few dogs that an average sized man can't kill with his bare hands...yes you might get torn up some...but you can and will win in the end.

I go to folks houses ever day and deal with all kinds of dogs and the majority are freindly and of the ones that are aggressive just about all of those are all bark... watch out for the little ones that hide under the couch though.
 
The logic of people anymore is way off.

If you buy a dog to protect your house and loved ones (ONE of the original purposes in domesticating them), you are supposed to control them and all their actions. Even tho, they are doing exactly what they are supposed to.

If you buy a gun to protect yourself, and you do use it, then you are a gun toting maniac.

Mags did the right thing, by coming here to get answers. Part of being a gun owner (especially CCW) is responisibility/judgement.

According to some things I'm reading(or reading into). The postman, UPS man, FedEx man, all should be loaded up with gun of choice, and ready/able to shoot all agressive dogs. Based on the fact that they have the right to be there, and they were in fear of their lives because the big barking dog "scared" them.
 
A perspective from someone who's BTDT with a 165lb dog.

I won't name the breed, but it wasn't the one originally mentioned in the thread anyways, but I was attacked without warning by a very large dog that was 165lbs and could stand on it's hind legs and be taller than me at 6ft. It was my mother's dog and I was walking out her back door, when it came out of the hedges and lunged at my face. I instinctively put my left arm up which got the full on bite and shake treatment. We went for a nice roll across the ground where I ended up on top (think UFC mounted) and punching. I nearly knocked the dog unconscious (aim for just behind the ear BTW, disorients them like it does people to be punched there) and he went semi-limp.

Luckily when I put my left arm up I drove it far enough back into the dog's mouth that only one fang penetrated my forearm. This wasn't by design, but by complete luck and accident, but if ever attacked again I'll try to remember it as a purposeful tactic. This dog's head was almost horse sized, so he didn't drink out of the toilet, wouldn't fit, he stuck his head in the sink and barked when he was thirsty, but I digress. So, that size of head actually saved me from some severe muscle damage that day, by allowing my arm to fit mostly behind the fangs.

Had the dog not gone limp and stopped shaking my next resort was the folding knife clipped in my pocket. And once again it would have been just behind the ear looking for the brainstem or "off switch". I was too young to own a handgun at the time, but had one been available it would have been an option too.

The points I'm trying to make by this story are these:

1) When you're on the ground rolling with a large breed aggressive dog you are in a mortal fight, no different then when faced with a BG armed with a knife or gun. You can and may be killed if you don't react properly up to and including deadly force against the dog, he's using it against you after all. Had I not got my left arm into that dog's mouth it would have been my face/neck and I would likely have been severely injured if not killed and not sitting here typing this.

2) If I'm attacked by any dog, your dog, my dog, my mother's dog, my best friend's cousin (twice removed) -in-law on his aunt's side's dog, or just some stranger's dog on the street, I will react properly to the attack (see above).

3) It may not be the dog's fault that they have attacked you, I tend to agree with those dog owners who like to blame bad owners and say there are no bad dogs. Though I will disagree and say there are bad dogs created by bad owners. My mother was such an owner. That doesn't negate the situation that you may find yourself in when the dog is attacking you and the owner isn't around. It's not like you can walk around with the dog biting your throat looking for the owner to call the dog off or to defend yourself against. Your mortal threat at that moment in time is the dog and it is you or him.

4) As we've all seen typed in threads on SD from people, worrying about what's gonna happen in court later can get you killed when you are in "that moment". If I'm faced with a mortal threat from person or animal I'll defend myself with appropriate force and deal with the potential legal consequences later.

OK the above is my personal .02 and is worth exactly what you paid for it. I'm not a lawyer, I don't even play one on TV or the internet. I'm just a guy who's been severely bitten before who doesn't plan a repeat if possible.
 
I won't name the town I lived in, but 3 years ago one of the local "StormTroopers" went to a house on a "call"

He approached the front door where a Yellow lab was barking, he then drew his sidearm and shot three times.

Now here is the kicker. This was in a residential area. The women who was at home with her children had no idea what happened(her husband was stationed in Iraq at the time).

I can go one further, I, along with 4 others were outside and saw the whole thing. Cop didn't know we were there either, you could tell by the lies he spit out in front of town council.

He was in NO DANGER. The dog was a doorbell, he claims the dog was ready to attack. I was 1 door away, and I can assure you that dog was just a furry "doorbell". He pre-empted a strike, which was the wrong thing to do. He was newer(actually he was an overcompensator, but this is a whole nother topic).

When a man approaches you with gun/knife drawn, you know you are SOL, and should be in fear of your life.

Unfortunately with dogs, you don't always know when you will be attacked. But, you can tell a barking dog that cowers, or backs up while doing it, is just a doorbell.

A charging dog may or may not attack, and in this situation, I think there are better ways than a gun, to handle a dog. IMHO
 
When a man approaches you with gun/knife drawn, you know you are SOL, and should be in fear of your life.
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You have that same feeling when you're rolling on the ground with a 165lb dog with his mouth around your arm too, trust me. That was the comparison I was making, not a comparison to a dog that is barking and may or may not bite.

I took the OP's intent in this whole thread to mean "What if" the door had given way and suddenly he's scrapping it out bare handed against a big aggressive dog, not a I'll shoot through the door to stop it. I'm not sure where everyone's getting that idea, but maybe I'm misreading the intent.
 
An interesting side note regarding the injuries I received from that little tangle:

The one fang penetrated my forearm just over an inch (remember this was a very large breed dog).

The compressive force of his bite bruised my forearm muscle badly. I walked around for about 2 weeks with my left arm about twice the size of my right from the swelling. The bruising took weeks to fade as well.

As we were rolling the dogs legs were flailing and clawing. I got several ripping cuts down my legs and chest from his claws, luckily my jeans protected my legs pretty well, but I got some pretty good lacerations to the chest as it was summer time and I had on only a T-shirt. None requiring stitching at least.

Had my throat been in the place of my arm, I don't even want to think of the injuries I would have received. I'm pretty sure it would have been a coroner vs. an ER doc doing the examining in that case.
 
I took the OP's intent in this whole thread to mean "What if" the door had given way and suddenly he's scrapping it out bare handed against a big aggressive dog, not a I'll shoot through the door to stop it. I'm not sure where everyone's getting that idea
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+1
 
"I learned long ago to put my foot at the base of a door if I saw a dog coming towards it"


Good idea!


"I'm going to edit this thread to remove each and every reference to the breed of dog and see if the thread can continue in a civil and productive manner with that change."


Maybe I missed some uncivil posts on this thread while I was gone, but I thought the references to that particular breed were very relevant to this thread. We had special training on my job regarding that breed, and were shown some scary films about attacks by that breed, and I've had personal experiences with that breed too. Of course other dog breeds can be very dangerous too.
 
If you ask me, its pretty clear what i am trying to say here. I understand that we all love our dogs but its also our job to keep them under control.
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I agree Mags. The rash of dog attacks in the media lately is proof of the dangers of letting irresponsible folk own large and dangerous dogs. Having a job such as yours where the odds of this happening are common, it is smart to know what appropriate action to take. Apparently from the discussion here, this may have been the wrong place to ask. Altho, I love watching how such innocent questions can turn grown, intelligent(?) men into ranting/raving idiots, IMHO, most were too hard on you.

Having a job that puts me in similar situations, I have come to always be on guard for such situations. I look for clues of a pet's existence as I go to the door. I keep my foot or body close to the door as others have mentioned and I usually have my tools with me(including a hammer). The barking and the lunging at the door seems to be a common tactic of house dogs and most stop there. Dogs loose in the yard usually are more subtle and facing them and talking loud and sternly usually keeps them at bay. Never turn your back on a strange dog(even with the owner near) and always offer the back of your hand and not the open palm to them if they act friendly and want to sniff you. Most of the time I get nailed after the owner has responded and has told me "don't worry he doesn't bite". Then as I stand there and try to control the flow of blood running down my arm they ask "did he bite you?". I have never been attacked to the intensity that rantingredneck was, but have been taught to respond the same way.....offer your non preference arm for them to chew on, while using the other to go for their neck or coller.....or your weapon.

If you are working for a municipality, there should be someone above you that can answer you questions of what is and what isn't appropriate. Makes for a better defense than "I was told by some guys on the internet".
 
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