Is the .38 enough stopping power

Here's some more....These are just the ones I remember, and they all involved off-duty cops, and they were all shot after they pulled their guns...The idea that the bad guys will . . . run away when you pull a gun doesn't hold true in this town...The bad guys must be tougher here...There was also a guy who was shot as he pulled his gun when some guys who turned out to be carjackers approached him. He fired about a magazine worth and was shot in the knee.


Officer didn't know killer
Suspect, 21, expected to be arraigned today in shootingDETROIT -- Investigators now believe Friday's shooting death of a 21-year-old off-duty police officer resulted from a chance meeting, and was not a case of retribution by the man they say killed her.
A 21-year-old Detroit man with a lengthy criminal record is expected to be arraigned today in 36th District Court on a first-degree murder charge in the death of Officer Shynelle Mason, who had served two years on the police force.
She was the first Detroit officer killed since February 1999.
Mason died Friday night following a curbside confrontation with a man near a west side gas station.
Police initially believed the man knew Mason as a result of his arrest last fall on a weapons charge. But it was later learned that Mason had simply helped process his paperwork, and it was unlikely they knew each other.
Mason primarily worked inside the 2nd (Schaefer) Precinct house, including handling video arraignments.
But she did work road patrol shifts, as recently as Friday.
Her suspected killer fired eight shots at Mason; she returned fire, shooting at least three errant rounds.
An autopsy performed Saturday revealed she died en route to Sinai-Grace Hospital of a single shot to the heart.
The deadly confrontation began shortly after 7 p.m. Friday.
Witnesses, family members and police gave the following account:
Mason and two female friends stopped at the Mobil Mart gas station at Fenkell and Schaefer. They were on their way to a movie, said Shantelle Mason, the officer's older sister.
Mason stepped inside to get a bottle of juice, said Tamika Edwards, a clerk at the station. She and her friends then filled a tire with air and began to drive away from the station when their car was blocked by a car with three men.
Police said the conversation began with the men trying to pick up the three women and quickly turned ugly.
"The police said the three men were harassing my sister," said Shantelle Mason.
After the exchange of words, Mason got out of the car and talked to the three men, out of earshot of her two companions. But her sister said officers told her that Mason identified herself as a police officer.
Police still don't know why the shooter fired his weapon eight times, or what was said during the conversation.
He fled in a car and apparently switched to another vehicle to complete his escape, Police Chief Benny Napoleon said.
At 7 a.m. Saturday, following a citywide manhunt, the suspected shooter was found hiding in the crawl space of a friend's home on Freeland near Plymouth, about a mile from the killing. Napoleon said he offered no resistence. A gun believed to be the murder weapon was found at the house.
The man's two companions were held for questioning Saturday by Detroit police and given polygraph tests to determine their involvement in the shooting. Investigators expect they will be charged in the coming week.
Investigators said the main suspect was arrested in September and convicted of illegally possessing four guns.
Asked why he was not incarcerated, Napoleon said: "You have to ask the judges of the district and circuit courts."
No one was available for comment Saturday at the courts or Wayne County's prosecutor's office to answer that question.
Late Saturday, about two dozen Detroit police officers -- many undercover and some wearing flak jackets -- met in the parking lot of the Mobil Mart at Fenkell and Schaefer where Mason was shot.
Police also questioned people who drove by the station. About 10 officers drove to an apartment building on the 16100 block of Schaefer to search the residence of one of the suspect's companions.
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DETROIT, MI:

Retired Police Officer Slain At Cleaners

A retired Detroit Police officer paid with her life on Wednesday afternoon when she attempted to stop a masked man holding a gun to her head in a dry cleaner on the Detroit's west side. Sherlyn Fleming, age 52 and retired for only two years, went to Indian Village Dry Cleaners to pick up her clothing. Police said the gunman saw that Fleming had a wad of money when he entered the business and announced a holdup, putting a handgun to her head.

She reached in her purse, removed her own gun and ordered the man to drop his. Instead, he fired three times and ran from the dry cleaner. He reamins still at large. Police say they believe he drove off in a dark-color sport utility vehicle made by Cadillac. Fleming died at Grace-Sinai Hospital.

Fleming was a 25 year veteran of the Detroit department. She worked in crime prevention, narcotics, the gang squad and internal affairs, her last assignment before retirement...
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Frank
As I said, I have no "First Hand" knowledge of an armed citizen not being able to defend themselves when called upon to do so. Not to say it doesn't happen, it's just that I have no "First Hand" knowledge of such a case. In over 25 years on The Job, I was called upon to investigate a case or two, and that is how I formed my opinion. Certainly, if you are faced with a drugged up, 280 lb., psychopath, the situation would be totally different. Get a 12 Ga., and a lot of ammo. However, I still feel that any reasonable weapon in the hands of a person who is willing to practice is going to be good enough to do the job. My opinion is going to remain the same. A .38 Spl. has enough power to do the job. The fact that the bullet has to be properly placed, goes without saying.
As an aside, based on personal experience, I have concluded that most Officers can barely hit the inside of a barn with their service weapon. Qualification day is usually the only time service weapons are ever fired, and many Agencies do not require qualification with an off duty weapon. I think using off duty cops as an example of poor shooting is misleading. From what I have seen, the "average" civilian shooter, is a much better shot than the "average" Officer.
Not looking to get into a pissing contest here, but I thought I would clarify.
 
I realize it is a long thread....But the post by Dr. Roberts have actual factual data

Most interesting is;

"None of the loads tested above outperformed our current standard J-frame BUG loading, the Winchester 148 gr standard pressure lead target wadcutter (X38SMRP). "


The wadcutter recomendation if for the lightweight 1 7/8" barrel J-frames. The .38 sp loads start performing better out of the 3" and 4" barrels.
 
I don't have specific bullet type and weight information on the following. But folks, people survive all types of stuff. I read somewhere that General Montgomery was shot in the heart with a rifle bullet in World War I and survived.

I've got a cousin who was shot in the sternum on the level of his nipples with a .38 special. The bullet exited his back. He looked down , decided she meant that she really, really didn't want him in her home; turned around and drove fifteen miles to the hospital. The bullet hit no organs or major vessels.

A Sardis, Georgia man was shot by a Sardis policeman with a .357 from a range of about two feet during a struggle. The bullet entered his face beside his left nostril. It stopped the fight but the man is walking around just fine today.

A young lady walked into the ER where I work one afternoon. She had been shot in the left side of her face with a 9mm. X-rays showed the bullet nestled cosily up next to her carotid artery. This is one I can tell about. It was obvious on the film that it was FMJ.

A fiftyish woman walks into the ER about 3AM. In no apparent distress. When we ask what the complaint is, she points to her butt and says she has been shot. There's a wound in her left buttock and another in the middle of her pubic hair. We transfer her to a Level I trauma center. They load her up with IV antibiotics and released her the next day. Apparently she had urinated just before being shot and her bladder was deflated and so was not damaged.

A man comes in with a gun shot wound. The entrance wound is to the side of left buttock just above the gluteal crease (just above the junction of buttock and thigh). I check between his buttocks...no wounds. I palpate his right buttock and feel the bullet under the skin just below the right gluteal crease. Bad news. There's several anatomical structures along that line that are near and dear to us males. The colon. The prostate. Some of the internal structure of the penis. Shipped him to the trauma center. Checked with them later. There was no damage to any of the internal organs.

Guy comes in shot in the leg with a .25 ACP FMJ. There's evidence of internal bleeding. Shipped to a trauma center.
Emergency vascular surgery. The young man has very serious deficits with the leg today. He won't be playing basketball again. He almost lost that leg.

I'm not looking for the holy grail of the the certain one shot stop in a pistol caliber. I do not believe it exists.

I carry .45 ACP 230 grain Gold Dots. I'll whistle in harmony with Tamara.
 
I think using off duty cops as an example of poor shooting is misleading. From what I have seen, the "average" civilian shooter, is a much better shot than the "average" Officer.
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I wasn't using them as examples of poor shots, but rather as examples of guys who deal with stressful, escalating/de-escalating violent situations on a regular basis, a thing that the average civilian shooter definately does not do, and who STILL fire lots of shots and miss while shooting it out with the hold-up man. I agree that the average civilian shooter is a better shot than the average officer at the range while shooting at paper, but I believe they're far, far less able to handle a dynamic situation like a domestic argument nearly as well as the average officer, let alone a gunfight.

Another thing I find unrealistic is the citizen-shooter (or cop for that matter, but more so the citizen) who has some training, and confidently says "I KNOW what I would do if some guy does X to me...." The fact of the matter is that they might THINK they know what they'll do, but they absolutely do NOT know what they'll do until some guy actually sticks a gun in their ear at the gas station or ATM.
 
the citizen-shooter (or cop for that matter, but more so the citizen)
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Why more so? Untrained civvie vs. Academy trained, sure bet, but if we're presuming "some training" why should the "oh s***" factor be any different badge or no?
 
Frank
I fully agree as far as threat response is concerned, a trained person is always better off than someone who is not trained. But, all this is really far off the mark when it comes to the discussion at hand, and I am as guilty as anyone. The question is, "Does a .38 have enough stopping power etc." OK, this is like choosing between vanilla and chocolate. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes. I know I can defend myself with a .38. I have in the past, and I feel confident I can do so again if I should have to. This of course depends on circumstance. If you should suddenly have a gun to your head, you are in somewhat of a precarious position. (Screwed) But, in that case, it doesn't matter what you have, getting un-screwed is the hard part. So, for the most part, I still feel that the old standby .38 will do the job. Like I said, I like vanilla. Some like chocolate.
Nothing further
 
Why more so? Untrained civvie vs. Academy trained, sure bet, but if we're presuming "some training" why should the "oh s***" factor be any different badge or no?
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Because police routinely deal with situations where decisions must be made under high stress and adrenaline. That part has nothing to do with training and everything to do with experience. There is no way a citizen shooter will have the same presence of mind that an experienced police shooter will have under stress (unless he makes similar decisions under similar stress). Same goes for cops who are new on the job. That's also one reason why younger cops get sued more than older ones (one reason anyway). Inappropriate decision-making under stress, despite training, in part due to lack of experience. You do NOT know what you will do until it's time to shoot someone, training or not. You may THINK you know, and that's good, I guess, but you don't know.
 
Yankee Doodle pretty much sums it up correctly. The .38 Special will do the job when placed. I can carry ANY caliber or load for duty now and I CHOOSE the .38 Special 158gr SWC. Granted, I probably wouldn't if I didn't have experience with it. If the bullet had not penetrated 15.75", hitting a rib enroute, I would probably be dead and my beautiful son would not have been born.
 
Frank,

That makes sense, but I thought one facet of training is to provide as close to "experience" as possible without actually engaging in all-out whatever.

I'm thinking of military exercises, you train to do the job you will have to do in combat over and over in as realistic scenarios as you can build. That way, when the "real deal" comes you have relevent "experiences" to draw on.

In that sense, good force-on-force training should prove as effective in building the "experiences" in personal gunfighting as it is in the military.

I guess I'm differentiating "training" from classroom or square-range instruction.
 
38 special

the 38 is a fine round....if i were to join law enforcement where i would wear my weapon openly..i would choose one of the two guns in my top drawer..a colt government 45 or my colt official police 38...love both guns and their cartridges...pick a gun you like...likability and trust go hand in hand...
 
How about these apples?

Since people say a full 357 magnum load is too much in the house noise/blast wise, especially at night...

Would you rather use a 686 4" with .38 or .38+P 125 gr jhps or a 5906TSW with 124gr+P gold dots? You get 6 vs 15+1, and although I haven't used every type of ammo in it yet, the 5906 does have a great reputation for feeding just about anything. And I could attach a tactical light.

What do you think?
 
Any caliber will do the job as long as you do your part. The .38 is better IMHO in a smaller gun than the .357 because it is easier to shoot accurately (back to that doing your part thing).
 
The Army upgraded from the .38S&W, not the .38 Special.

If I didn't think the .38 Special was enough stopping power, I wouldn't carry one. But I do, and I do, because I have absolute confidence that the combination of time-tested, light-recoiling .38 Special and all-steel K frame enable me to put 'em where it counts quicker and better than any other caliber/gun combo.
 
Oh ok, was the .38 Special even invented then?

I know that GSG-9 switched from .38 Special revolvers to .357s, .44s and 9mm autos because of a lack of stopping power with the cartridges they were using: http://students.engr.scu.edu/~jabraham/specwar/specops/germany/gsg9/page3.html

In the process of executing Operation Magic Fire a GSG-9 operator emptied 6 rounds into a terrorists torso, after which the terrorist pulled two grenades (which exploded harmlessly), he only died after a burst of MP-5 hit him.
 
The .38 special was invented in response to the failures of the .38 Long Colt (about the same as .38 S&W) on the Moro Tribesmen in the Philipines during and shortly after the Spanish American War. To be fair, 30-40 Krag Rifles had trouble stopping the Moros who were hopped up on opium and in an absolute blood lust and I doubt a .45 would've done better than a rifle. The best weapon for that situation was found to be a 12-guage loaded with 00 or 000 Buckshot. The .38 Special has a reputation for being a poor stopper because of failures with the old 158grn lead roundnose "police service load" and similar non-expanding loadings. With modern hollowpoints and +P's, this load will do about as well as a 9mm.
 
Col Fairbairn wrote about different calibers and such in the 1930s-1940s, after about 20 years' experience with the Shanghai police.
He writes about the .455 Webley, a big slow moving lead slug. He recounts a story about an Sikh policeman firing all 6 rounds into a fleeing suspect. Five passed right through, one lodged in his shoulder and was recovered slightly deformed. The perp was killed. By being battered by the Sikh's Webley, not by the bullets.
So, would you rather bludgeon someone with a 12 oz titanium .38 or a 40oz .44mag?
 
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