Is the .38 enough stopping power

thank you

hey, thanks yankee doodle. i think that helps me out. it make sence. i, myself am going into the law enforcement field, and i think this advice may be of good value.
 
If you don't make a CNS hit then it comes down to filling a person with holes and waiting for them to bleed out. One can argue that a bigger caliber will make bigger holes and that will mean a person bleeds out faster, but that's hogwash. It's not the size of the holes (given we're only talking about differences in the tenths of inches here) but WHERE the holes are that makes the difference.
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Sometimes I try to share this with associates who like to argue that infinitesimal differences of bullet caliber are crucial to their effectiveness. Attempting to diminish the .38 Special by comparing its 36/100ths against the "bigger" pistol round calibers isn't realistic. Even if you're talking about a .45 at most that's only a mere 9/100ths of an inch difference, and that is really negligible.
 
TO STOP WHAT? THE STOPPING POWER DEBATE HAS GONE "MAD"...IT'S LIKE THE MUTUALLY ASSURED DESTRUCTION DOCTRINE OF THE 60'S-70'S..."MINE IS BIGGER THAN YOURS"...BIG DOES NOT MEAN GOOD STOPS..eX. THE 44 MAG DOES NOT LOOK AS GOOD IN STREET PERFORMANCE EVALUATIONS AS THE 357MAG. I'VE SEEN A LARGE MAN DROPPED DEAD WHEN HE HIT THE GROUND FROM ONE ROUND OF A LEAD ROUND NOSE BULLET FROM A 2 INCH BARRELED 38 SPECIAL...I HAVE ALSO SEEN REPORTS OF A MAN HIT 5-6 TIMES AT CLOSE RANGE WITH A 357 WHO LIVED. THE POWER IS NOT AS CRITICAL AS THE CONTROL, THE HIT...BETTER TO HIT WITH A 38 THAN MISS WITH A 357....BUT, THE SHORT ANSWER IS YES..A 38 HAS PLENTY OF POWER TO END A FIGHT IN 1 SHOT..I OWN 357'S MYSELF, BUT THEY ARE MUCH MORE OFTEN LOADED WITH 38PLUS P..MY FAVORITES ARE THE K FRAME SMITHS...THE 3 INCH 66 IS REAL NICE IF YOU CAN FIND ONE AND TUNE IT WELL...(TURN REBOUND SPRING AND DEBUR GENERALLY, AND THEN SHAVE A BIT OFF THE MAINSPRING TENSION SCREW..NOT TOO MUCH)....
 
I'm new here but I thought I would chime in on this old topic. The .38 Special is a fine cartridge for defending yourself. Is it good for an offensive advance against armed felons? No handgun is. I will say from personal experience that a person who uses a .38 with LRN bullets and who uses available cover, and stays mobile, will always win against an assailant who shoots dry his .45 Auto or .357 and stays put, because he thinks his handgun is awesome man-stopper. And I'll also say from personal experience that in flesh, 4 standard velocity SWC's in .38 center mass does the damage of a well placed shotgun slug. And causes just as much bleeding. Also, when the world's police agencies were using this caliber with LRN bullets they were trained to leave cover and empty their revolvers in the open. They probably would have been just as vulnerable if they were armed with a M1 Garand. Historically, I would not have been born if it were not for a S&W M&P .38 Special revolver loaded with LRN bullets. My grandfather used one during the Japanese campaign to get himself out of a mess. He said it worked fine. And you know how the Japanese soldiers were known for going down easy :rolleyes: Oh, well. Enough rambling.
 
I'm NOT bringing this up as a personal thing with the poster, but
BETTER TO HIT WITH A 38 THAN MISS WITH A 357
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always bothered me. The reason is it's a bit of a strawman argument in that it presupposes that the person with the .357 will miss. The implication being that the power of the .357 is relied upon to make up for the lack of accuracy of the shooter.
This may be true in some cases, but I fear that some people are turned off from a very effective self-defense caliber (beit the .38/.357, .22/.45, or whatever comparison) because they are told the light load is easier to hit with and one is too likely to miss with a more effective round.

IMHO, people should worry more about being able to hit with a given weapon/caliber (this means shooting the gun a LOT, not just talking about it) than what the caliber is. So, yes, properly placed, a .38 would be "enough".

An dwhile, yes, a hit with a .38 is better than a miss with a .357, that's no reason to not practice until you are good with the .357.
 
Good point, Magnum 88C. European police and south asian police still use .32 ACP with 71gr. ball rounds. You would have figured they would have switched if they were not getting the job done. Have more confidence in your ability to survive instead of worrying if your caliber or load will "get it done". Keep the pressure on your assailant, keep moving, get behind something---few felons can shoot with enough skill to hit a moving target dropping in and out of obstacles. Practice shooting while backing up. Practice shooting while moving. Keep in mind that a stray shot to the femur or hip can produce better results then a lung hit and buy you enough time to disengage.
 
The nice thing about having a .357 Mag. revolver is that there are so many different kinds of loads available, either as handloads or factory ammo. You can even buy reloaded ammo at relatively low cost.

For practice, and shooting matches, we've used wadcutter loads that have little recoil, for small game, semi-wadcutter .38 spl. loads, and for duty, protection, and hunting, .357 Mag. loads. Even shot loads are available for snakes and other vermin at close range. The caliber is near perfection for people wanting to work up from rimfire to a magnum.

Cleaning lead out of chambers after shooting wadcutters takes about 10 strokes of a bronze brush, or a round or two of jacketed .38 spl. (probably not recommended for lightweight guns).

Picher
 
Someone mentioned the police left the .38 because it just didn't get the job done. The police at that time were mostly (if not all) using hardball FMJ. The .38 with hollowpoints or EFMJ ammo is quite effective.
 
Dusty,
No one said, or even intimated that you could safely go bear hunting with your .22 snubby. Bears are rather large wild animals, without human responses. They don't know fear as we do, are not psycologically impacted by being shot, and don't react to pain the same way we do. That being said, if you should choose to hunt bears with a .22 snubby, go for it. I guess there are worse ways of committing suicide. At least if you don't take a shot, you should be OK.
However, I fail to see the relevance of your post, so I will just think of it as just another person venting. The question at hand is not about bear hunting, but about the use of a .38 Spl. as a self defense round against a human attacker.
FACT: Based upon my personal experience, IT WORKS JUST FINE
Thank you all for your time.
 
Magnum88c said:
BETTER TO HIT WITH A 38 THAN MISS WITH A 357
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I've heard this expressed many ways with different calibers, but never with the meaning ascribed to it by Magnum88C. The usual meaning of this saying is ... Only hits win a gunfight so use a gun which allows you to hit your target reliably. A shooter who can hit their target consistently with a .22 is better off than someone who misses with a .44 Magnum.

This applies directly to self-defense and gunfights, not bear, lion or elk hunting.
 
This is the type of dicussion that will/can never be resolved. Having retired from the gun & ammo companies, having ben involved in ammo development, and discussed this type of topic with law enforcement over the years.......there are a few things that have popped up. Bullet design/construction is the single most important facror in lethal potential. In the 70's the move began toward semi-autos, mainly in 9mm. In testing, we found most of the hollow points coming out then did not even expand and acted like full patch stuff. We also found that changing the bullet from a round nose to one with a flat point (meplat) that it deposited quite a bit more energy in tests and on the street. To compare today's designs against the ammo prior 1970 would be silly. The companies, and shooters, have learned a great deal. I have watched things swing one way and then the other, but the one thing that holds true is there must be enough velocity and weight to penetrate deep and tear up vitals.
So......the debate/discussion will go on, but you can bet that whatever the load....it should be on the heavy side and with a big meplat........James@Dixie Slugs
 
People are so focused on hollowpoints that they're tuned out from the facts. Bullet expansion is over-emphasized, it's not even necessary in choosing good defensive ammo.
 
J-frame 38 or 357 ??

Talking about just the J-frame size snubs, the question of whether the 38 snub has enough stopping power compared to the 357 snub is sort of moot because almost no one can tolerate the recoil and blast from the 357 snub, even if it's the steel gun with its extra weight.

Even the big-time gun writers and cops beg off the 357 in a J-frame, and accept the 38 special - usually the 158gr LSWCHP FBI load, or maybe some of the latest 38 special hollowpoints designed for the snub. Or they recommend the small lightweight 9mm guns.

One solution for the lightweight 357 J-frame is the 357-lite rounds being made by several of the ammo companies. These rounds have reduced recoil, but still have quite a bit more energy than the 38.

Of course, you have to beware of the bullets pulling out of the cases and binding the cylinder in the ultralight guns, because of their sharper kickback.

The only brand that did not have the bullets pulling like this in my 12-ounce 340PD was the Proload 125 Tactical Lite, I think it was called. I tried all the 357-lite brands and they all pulled too much, except for the Proload. But that was a year ago, and maybe this problem is fixed by now.

adk
 
BillCA, I think you missed my point.

I was talking about self-defense, not hunting.
I also feel for self defense you should be carrying some thing you can hit with.

My point is, most people seem to think it's a virture to carry the LEAST powerful gun/caliber they can hit with, whereas I take the opposite tack: carry the MOST powerful gun/caliber you can hit with. If that's a .38 special, then carry it. But if you can hit with a .357, carry it. i realise that hopping around the 'net, it's considered almost an immutable law that no one can shoot a pwoerful gun well, but that's simply not true.

But for self defense, the key, I think everyone agrees on, is that whatever you carry, you have to be able to hit with it. Agreed?

And once again, if you can hit with a .38 special, it WILL do the job.
 
People are so focused on hollowpoints that they're tuned out from the facts. Bullet expansion is over-emphasized, it's not even necessary in choosing good defensive ammo.
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How do you figure? Are you telling me you'd rather risk shooting a BG with an FMJ vs an HP?
 
How do you figure? Are you telling me you'd rather risk shooting a BG with an FMJ vs an HP?
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No. But I'm saying that the matter of choosing a bullet for defense, which means a bullet that will kill effectively, apparently to a lot of people is entirely a consideration of just its capacity to expand, and that expansion isn't so necessary to do this. The way I figure it, the size of a bullet in comparison to a human body is already so small that mere 100ths of an inch of difference in caliber is really negligible, any degree of expansion it can manage is also too incremental to matter. NOT saying FMJ is equal to HP -- there must be a minimum of tissue destruction you only get from blunt-face bullet shapes. Fine if you prefer a .45+p black talon over a .38 wadcutter, but the human body has no ability to differentiate. Shoot a baddie through the heart with either one and they'll die equally as well; a barely larger hole meant nothing. There's only a minimum of caliber,bullet weight and velocity you need (which really starts at the .38 special and 9mm) to create a fatal or at least disabling wound through all but the most thickly clothed or heaviest of attackers, it's alright to try to maximize the wound channel by expansion if you feel that extra bit will pay off,...but it's not crucial. Stopping power is about shot placement and adequate penetration, so much else is only secondary.
 
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It is my understanding

It is my understanding that when the .357 came out in 1935, it came out not as a result of insufficient stopping power but lack of penetrating power against automobiles (during the era of the 20's and 30's against gangsters). Thus produced the .357 one of the first of which was presented to J. Edgar Hoover. While a lot of policemen picked up the .357, the vast majority of them stuck with the .38 special because it didn't have all the bulk and recoil of the .357. It was easier to conceal, carry and handle and had addiquate stopping power
 
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