Is the .38 enough stopping power
- Thread starter workin_ike
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boston strangler
New member
Yes, No, Maybe?
Sometime a 12ga slug isn't enough stopping power. Use what you are comfortable with and can shoot well. The key part of any defensive weapon is between your ears.
Sometime a 12ga slug isn't enough stopping power. Use what you are comfortable with and can shoot well. The key part of any defensive weapon is between your ears.
Buy a stainless .357 S&W 686 in 4" or 6" barrel. Shoot it a lot, but don't clean off the face of the cylinder too much. It looks more dangerous and obviously used with the black circles around the chambers.
Also, if you have time, put ear plugs in your ears, or better yet, shooting muffs on while the BGs are approaching. Not only will you need them when shooting the .357, but it will scare the crap out of the BGs when they see you put them in and they may turn tail without causing any problems, especially when they see you assume a two-handed combat hold on the gun. Oh yeah, don't forget to hold the knob of a loaded speed loader between your middle weak hand fingers, with the rounds pointing outward.
If that doesn't work, start shooting, reload, and shoot some more.
Picher
Also, if you have time, put ear plugs in your ears, or better yet, shooting muffs on while the BGs are approaching. Not only will you need them when shooting the .357, but it will scare the crap out of the BGs when they see you put them in and they may turn tail without causing any problems, especially when they see you assume a two-handed combat hold on the gun. Oh yeah, don't forget to hold the knob of a loaded speed loader between your middle weak hand fingers, with the rounds pointing outward.
If that doesn't work, start shooting, reload, and shoot some more.
Picher
Peter M. Eick
New member
Just as a thought about the 38 question. Consider that from say the 1900's to say 1960's or there abouts, 38 special revolvers were considered standard guns for most police officers and I bet that a lot of bad guys got killed with them.
I have to wonder why a 38 special round nosed bullet out of a snubby could kill so many baddies during the 30's to the 70's and now the collective "we" seem to think that nothing less then a 500 smith magnum is good enough.
For me, I am content with my 380 auto at sometimes, and other times a nice old detecive special. The key is I can hit where I want with it and I am confident in my guns.
What's the old FBI comment? Something like "3 shots, 3 yards and 3 seconds" for most encounters?
I have to wonder why a 38 special round nosed bullet out of a snubby could kill so many baddies during the 30's to the 70's and now the collective "we" seem to think that nothing less then a 500 smith magnum is good enough.
For me, I am content with my 380 auto at sometimes, and other times a nice old detecive special. The key is I can hit where I want with it and I am confident in my guns.
What's the old FBI comment? Something like "3 shots, 3 yards and 3 seconds" for most encounters?
Mike Irwin
Staff
There's no doubt at all that many "baddies" also survived their encounter, sometimes multiple encounters, with 158-gr. LRN bullets, as well.
This load isn't just now thought of as a poor performer, there were many complaints about it in the 1920s and 1930s, all the way up through the 1970s.
This load isn't just now thought of as a poor performer, there were many complaints about it in the 1920s and 1930s, all the way up through the 1970s.
FrankDrebin
Moderator
Standard issue for the Detroit Police Dept. for years was a Model 10 with a 5" bbl and 158 grain round nose lead bullets. However, if you bought your own, you could carry anything you wanted in Smith and Wesson or Colt, .38 or bigger in revolvers and later certain Smith autos. I know of very, very few guys in the types of units likely to need to shoot someone who carried their .38's for very long before going to either .357's .44's 41's or .45 Long Colts. I know of even fewer who got into shootings with the .38 who didn't make the switch shortly thereafter. Paranoia? Maybe. Maybe not.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Elmer Keith said "no", but what did he know anyway?"
Elmer Keith based his recommendation solely on one thing -- bullet diameter.
Same with rifles.
Had Colt make a .75 Long Colt revolver, he would have said the .45 Long wasn't enough.
Elmer Keith based his recommendation solely on one thing -- bullet diameter.
Same with rifles.
Had Colt make a .75 Long Colt revolver, he would have said the .45 Long wasn't enough.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Yeah, you're right, Hal, he had a hand in developing a lot of smaller calibers over the years.
I wasn't thinking.
His battles with Jack O'Connor over bullet diameter are, however, legendary.
I wasn't thinking.
His battles with Jack O'Connor over bullet diameter are, however, legendary.
Longbowshooter
New member
If you are new to shooting I think the 38 is a great round to start with and revolvers a good choice also. The ability to dry fire without cycling the weapon is invaluable to someone learning to shoot. Get some snap caps and do a hundred aimed dryfires a day and your trigger control, aiming and groups will improve dramatically.
Though I don't have experience in using it for defense, 38's loaded in my bedside guns. I'm fond of Rugers. You can find some nice prices on old speed/service sixes at @ $250. A GP100 would be a little more. I have bought 3 used Ruger wheel guns and everyone is great.
You may want to get a 357 and carry only 38's.If you feel comfortable with 38's there is nothing lost. The ability to shoot the more powerful caliber will only cost you the price of a box of ammo and you can see if it is something you may want to carry in the future.
For what it's worth, the Philadelphia, PA police department authorizes model 10 38's and model 65 357's carried with Federal 125gr. 38's. Both these guns are fixed sight with 4" barrels.
Though I don't have experience in using it for defense, 38's loaded in my bedside guns. I'm fond of Rugers. You can find some nice prices on old speed/service sixes at @ $250. A GP100 would be a little more. I have bought 3 used Ruger wheel guns and everyone is great.
You may want to get a 357 and carry only 38's.If you feel comfortable with 38's there is nothing lost. The ability to shoot the more powerful caliber will only cost you the price of a box of ammo and you can see if it is something you may want to carry in the future.
For what it's worth, the Philadelphia, PA police department authorizes model 10 38's and model 65 357's carried with Federal 125gr. 38's. Both these guns are fixed sight with 4" barrels.
I believe the pocket J-frame is one of the best for a fast response in close quarters, if you have your hand already on the gun, as you might in a bad area.
I saw where a big gunner, who is supposed to know his stuff, abandoned the 38 snub for the 357 snub, because the 38 just does not hit HARD enough, he said.
I saw the expert opinion that a bullet has to hit so hard the perp is somewhat unnerved by it. That he knows he's been hit hard, which causes him to be noticeably slowed somewhat, or knocked a bit off balance. In this instant, you can re-aim and place your second shot.
I saw where they want the perp out of action with these first two shots. So these shots have to be really hard hitters, and in the zone. Otherwise, the perp's adrenalin from being hit will enable him to drive forward, if the hits are too weak. The 38 was considered too weak.
The S&W stainless model 640 .357 with the full-power Federal 125gr 357B was a popular choice, giving 420 ft lbs. This is equal to the Fed 9mm 115gr +P+ 9BPLE from a 4" Glock 19, and rated at 91% by Marshall.
Pretty good from a 2" barrel on a gun that can be dropped into a pocket, if necessary - and smooth enough to come out fast in close quarters.
I pocket-carry the S&W 12 ounce 640PD with the hot Fed 357B round. The recoil is dreadful, but if you ever had to use the gun for real, it's my opinion that you would never notice the recoil. You would be glad to have the extra power in such a scenerio. I can squeeze off the 5 shots, on target, one-handed, without losing any control of the gun, because the recoil is straight back. I get 380 ft lbs from the 1.87 barrel.
So far, I've been able to stick with this "AirLight" but may switch to the stainless 640 when I just can't take it anymore. I have 640 grips on the 340PD, which cover the backstrap. This helps a lot. I would never shoot a 357 round with the little Bantam grips that came with the gun.
------------ adk
I saw where a big gunner, who is supposed to know his stuff, abandoned the 38 snub for the 357 snub, because the 38 just does not hit HARD enough, he said.
I saw the expert opinion that a bullet has to hit so hard the perp is somewhat unnerved by it. That he knows he's been hit hard, which causes him to be noticeably slowed somewhat, or knocked a bit off balance. In this instant, you can re-aim and place your second shot.
I saw where they want the perp out of action with these first two shots. So these shots have to be really hard hitters, and in the zone. Otherwise, the perp's adrenalin from being hit will enable him to drive forward, if the hits are too weak. The 38 was considered too weak.
The S&W stainless model 640 .357 with the full-power Federal 125gr 357B was a popular choice, giving 420 ft lbs. This is equal to the Fed 9mm 115gr +P+ 9BPLE from a 4" Glock 19, and rated at 91% by Marshall.
Pretty good from a 2" barrel on a gun that can be dropped into a pocket, if necessary - and smooth enough to come out fast in close quarters.
I pocket-carry the S&W 12 ounce 640PD with the hot Fed 357B round. The recoil is dreadful, but if you ever had to use the gun for real, it's my opinion that you would never notice the recoil. You would be glad to have the extra power in such a scenerio. I can squeeze off the 5 shots, on target, one-handed, without losing any control of the gun, because the recoil is straight back. I get 380 ft lbs from the 1.87 barrel.
So far, I've been able to stick with this "AirLight" but may switch to the stainless 640 when I just can't take it anymore. I have 640 grips on the 340PD, which cover the backstrap. This helps a lot. I would never shoot a 357 round with the little Bantam grips that came with the gun.
------------ adk
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FireForged
New member
You can "What-if" all day long about Flying Panda's or Zombies on LSD. My thoughts on the 38 is pretty simple. In CQB the 38 has killed more BG's than any other pistol caliber. Is it a perfect item for all missions? (NO), but the idea that someone will take a double tap and still have it in his mind to rob you is just silly. I would never shoot-to-wound but if the BG happens to survive thats just fine as long I stopped him from harming me.
Para Bellum
New member
Marksmanship and a gun you like
The best and most competent pistolero I know (law enforcment instructor) sometimes carries a .22 pistol when off duty. He hits were he aims at, so that maybe just fine. Recently Israeli Air Marshals trained at a range I sometimes go to. The people there told me, that they generally shoot .22s and rely on their accuracy which reportedly was astounding.
I have heared that no handgun surely stops. If a snub .38 is the gun you carry and feel well with, go for it. A gun you buy but don't always carry because you don't like it or find it to big is no use.
I also think that in snubs (barrels unter 3") the .357 doesn't perform well and most of the powder burns outside the barrel. That just blinds you, might hurt your ears and makes it harder to place a second shot due to more recoil etc.
I would go for a 9x19mm (Glock 26 - small!), a .38 Snub, or a .357 Hunters-Revolver (S&W, Taurus) with a 3" barrel. None of these guns will stopp anything if you don't hit well. If you do hit well, a .22 might just be enough.
The best and most competent pistolero I know (law enforcment instructor) sometimes carries a .22 pistol when off duty. He hits were he aims at, so that maybe just fine. Recently Israeli Air Marshals trained at a range I sometimes go to. The people there told me, that they generally shoot .22s and rely on their accuracy which reportedly was astounding.
I have heared that no handgun surely stops. If a snub .38 is the gun you carry and feel well with, go for it. A gun you buy but don't always carry because you don't like it or find it to big is no use.
I also think that in snubs (barrels unter 3") the .357 doesn't perform well and most of the powder burns outside the barrel. That just blinds you, might hurt your ears and makes it harder to place a second shot due to more recoil etc.
I would go for a 9x19mm (Glock 26 - small!), a .38 Snub, or a .357 Hunters-Revolver (S&W, Taurus) with a 3" barrel. None of these guns will stopp anything if you don't hit well. If you do hit well, a .22 might just be enough.
I refer you to this.... http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
There's a lot of revealing information on this issue of " stopping power" which you'd probably love to read. Check out the article on the FBI's criteria for effective handgun cartridge performance.
There's a lot of revealing information on this issue of " stopping power" which you'd probably love to read. Check out the article on the FBI's criteria for effective handgun cartridge performance.
Dusty Miller
New member
Whenever this topic pops up on a gun forum there seems to be a lot of pure foolishness that pops up right with it. If you are going to defend yourself against some little old lady with a tactical umbrella then your .22, .25, .38 Auto, or .38 special is going to serve you well. If, however, you face a prison hardened criminal well over six feet tall and well over two hudred pounds in weight who is loaded to the gills on PCP, heroine, methamphetamine, your .38 is going to just get you killed unless you can hit the heart, spine, or brain very quickly under high stress. A heavier gun will steady your hand and a big, hard hitting bullet will do a lot more damage in a hurry to stop the perp's attack. Hell, why do you thing big game hunters use a .375 H&H against dangerous game rather than a 30-06? If you are not willing to learn to use an effective weapon then perhaps you'd do best to just fortify your house and never leave it!!
Isn't that the truth...
According to the FBI, the only way to get an instant stop with a pistol is to hit the CNS (Central Nervous System=brain or upper spine). Given that a .38 will penetrate deeply enough to do that, it will provide instant stops as well as any other pistol caliber.
If you don't make a CNS hit then it comes down to filling a person with holes and waiting for them to bleed out. One can argue that a bigger caliber will make bigger holes and that will mean a person bleeds out faster, but that's hogwash. It's not the size of the holes (given we're only talking about differences in the tenths of inches here) but WHERE the holes are that makes the difference.
There is no practical, repeatable evidence that says that increasing caliber size results in faster incapacitation when a CNS hit is not made. If anyone has any, they can post it here. There is, of course, evidence that larger calibers do more tissue damage, but again, that means absolutely NOTHING unless the hits are where they need to be. That doesn't mean that incapacitation will be faster, and again, it comes down to marksmanship.
There's an interesting and educational thread in the Tactical & Training portion of TFL called the Myth of the One Shot Stop that links to a very worthwhile article.
The idea that a hit with a pistol round jolts the shootee or can knock him off balance is not at all based in fact. There are numerous accounts of people being shot and reporting that they didn't even realize what had happened. One subject reported being frightened by the sound of all the shots and didn't even realize he had been shot numerous times by the police until later. That's a far cry from being jolted or being knocked off balance. That only happens in the movies.
Yup, usually you can spot the myth-bearers with very little practice.
The following statements are not myths:
- A hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .44 every time.
- Speed is fine. Accuracy is final.
- The best caliber is the one that allows you to put all your shots on target.
- You don't shoot to wound. You don't shoot to kill. You shoot to live.
The other problem with this topic, is when that someone asks if the a .38 is a good self-defense gun and there are dozens of affirmative answers saying it works well, with the right load and good shot placement some one has to conjur up the BG with an NFL Linebacker build who consumes mass quantities of narcotics before running amok with his gas-operated 11.3mm wondergun and its 35 round rotary magazine.
In the real world, 98% of the bad guys are not on large doses of narcotics or otherwise "tactically equipped" to stand off the 3rd Marine Expeditionary Force. They may have a blood alcohol level up to 0.13 or so and sense pain dully, but the .38 with a proper load and C-O-M placement will usually turn out their lights.
I'm not trying to rag on or insult anyone here. Sure the .38 Special has its limitations however it is historically the most popular centerfire caliber handgun in the U.S. and used for self defense more than any other. But to dismiss the .38 because it won't give a one-shot-stop on a drugged up assailant is not only self-deluding, it does a disservice to people seeking an honest opinion.
Yankee Doodle
New member
In the real world
Based on a lot of years as a "street" cop, before moving up the ladder, I have found the following to be the way things go down in the vast majority of cases. If the intended victim is armed, bad guy makes threat, good guy displays gun, bad guy soils trousers, and departs rapidly. Threat ended. Now, in those cases where bad guy continues threat, and deadly force is justified, good guy pulls trigger a few times, (usually till gun is empty) and bad guy either drops at the scene, (threat ended) or departs as rapidly as possibly. (threat ended) Thinking back over a rather long police career, I have no first hand knowledge of an armed "victim" not being able to defend him/her self in this situation. I have found that no matter what the "victim" is armed with, they have always prevailed. Now, I realize that the three cases I had to investigate do not carry much weight in the grand scheme of things, but I have come to believe the following to be true.
The gun you have with you, is better than anything you left at home. If all you can carry is a "mere" .38, and you have practiced enough to be competent with it, you are well protected.
I hope no one take offence at this post, but I thought it might be of some small value.
Based on a lot of years as a "street" cop, before moving up the ladder, I have found the following to be the way things go down in the vast majority of cases. If the intended victim is armed, bad guy makes threat, good guy displays gun, bad guy soils trousers, and departs rapidly. Threat ended. Now, in those cases where bad guy continues threat, and deadly force is justified, good guy pulls trigger a few times, (usually till gun is empty) and bad guy either drops at the scene, (threat ended) or departs as rapidly as possibly. (threat ended) Thinking back over a rather long police career, I have no first hand knowledge of an armed "victim" not being able to defend him/her self in this situation. I have found that no matter what the "victim" is armed with, they have always prevailed. Now, I realize that the three cases I had to investigate do not carry much weight in the grand scheme of things, but I have come to believe the following to be true.
The gun you have with you, is better than anything you left at home. If all you can carry is a "mere" .38, and you have practiced enough to be competent with it, you are well protected.
I hope no one take offence at this post, but I thought it might be of some small value.