Is the .38 enough stopping power

My point was that for most folks six in the cylinder is adequate to get them out of trouble. A reload is nice to have, but most people will fire one or two and then hopefully get the heck out of Dodge. The .38 Special will do the job for people in that kind of situation and I include myself in that. Off duty and on duty are two different things.

One of the things about North Hollywood is that officers have to be careful about where they shoot. We're always being told that me need to make sure of our backdrop before we fire due to the fact that one of our bullets might kill a citizen.We're expected to follow the rules and when we kill a taxpayer, even during a truly horrific situation,there will be hell to pay - as well as many lawyers.

The bad guys operate under no such consideration. Those two creeps didn't care who they hit. I think it should be pointed out that they weren't exactly the greatest shots either. What was their hit ratio per round fired? I don't know, but I'm willing to bet it wasn't very high considering the prodigious amount of ammo they expended. The cops had to excercise restraint. It was the afternoon in a very busy business district. This is one reason why some people say that cops should go back to revolvers. Not so much that the officers armed with revolvers are more careful with their expenditure of ammo and sight picture, but that even the best trained folks will blow through their ammo in a bad situation.Many a cop and soldier who has just come through a firefight will thing they have only fired one or two rounds, only to learn that they emptied their weapon. Better that the officer only send six rounds into the world then fifteen. Well I don't necessarily agree with that line of thinking, but there are many who do.

The rule are different for the police. Look at the activity a controversial police shooting can generate on this and other forums. Even if the shooting appears to be completely justified and beyond question (dead cops,dead citizens,etc.) many people will still try to blame the Police. Saying the cops brought about the inccident by being aggressive, insensitive etc. Okay that goes with the job, but this is one big reason why the officers did what they did.

It's also alot harder to hit a moving target who is shooting at you then it is to hit even a moving target on a nice peaceful firing range. Why is it that nobody ever takes this into account? While I am very impressed with all the IPSIC shooters I wonder how great they would be in a similar situation and they shoot thousands and thousands of rounds in practive every month,don't they? But it isn't the same.

Okay I got a little off the thread here, but I wanted to point this stuff out. I'm not a threadjacker.
 
being an instructor in the USMC for a while, I've been fortunate enough to shoot many diff. cals. in rev's and semi's. and I've been witness to some of the best shooters in the world in both.

I've seen a man with a 38 spcl put 6 shots DA from 20 yards away into a 6 in. sq in appx 5 seconds offhand (a std mod 10 with no scope) ... I've seen another man shoot skeet with another std 38 spcl colt (he went 8 for 8) with no scope...I've seen 20 more men attempt this with their std. glock,baretta,taurus etc... all got less than 50% in the black and less than 25% on the skeet shoot.

My point being that there is no substitute for practice. and until you can place a well aimed shot at both stationary and moving targets, you're really removing yourself from a majority of real life situations no matter what you carry (shotguns being the exception :).

I myself carry a comp. colt 45 daily (city), I also carry my 1955 vintage 38spcl m&p for hiking, 4 wheeling, and hunting, but I know the advantages of each firearm i carry for whatever situation i carry for.

to quote my daddy

"a slingshot in the hands of someone who knows how to use it, is more effective than a novice with a 30-06"
 
..my problem with the hollywood incident is that at some point,(although the cops were out-gunned individually), the cops had the bandits badly outnumbered..the robbers can each only shoot at one target at a time...I find it hard to believe there wasn't one or several officers who couldn't get a head or limb shot ...where the crooks were not protected..sounds like they were lacking training in a shoot out circumstance(automatics weapons or not)..didn't they have any shotguns on hand?...life and death situation to be sure...but these police officers were lacking practice...who knows..
 
Good post's one and all

Hi,

I believe all points that have been brought up are very good and well thought out. I believe the training factor is very important, probably the most important of all things mentioned.

Head shots are not that tough, I see them all the time in the movies. :barf:

Harley
 
Rangefodder

being an instructor in the USMC for a while, I've been fortunate enough to shoot many diff. cals. in rev's and semi's. and I've been witness to some of the best shooters in the world in both.

I've seen a man with a 38 spcl put 6 shots DA from 20 yards away into a 6 in. sq in appx 5 seconds offhand (a std mod 10 with no scope) ... I've seen another man shoot skeet with another std 38 spcl colt (he went 8 for 8) with no scope...I've seen 20 more men attempt this with their std. glock,baretta,taurus etc... all got less than 50% in the black and less than 25% on the skeet shoot.

My point being that there is no substitute for practice. and until you can place a well aimed shot at both stationary and moving targets, you're really removing yourself from a majority of real life situations no matter what you carry (shotguns being the exception .
Click to expand...

I can't deny thats impressive shooting. Lots of practice and a godgiven ability to shoot can make for impressive results. Over the years I've become a better shooter thanks to practice, but I don't know if I'll ever achieve that level of technical ability. I'm willing to bet that many of the folks who post on this forum can't shoot like that either. Very good shooting yes, but professional level of competitive shooting? If that was the case we'd all be NFL quarterbacks and Olympic sprinters. Sometimes it's genetics as well as practice. I didn't get dealt the gentic jackpot. Got to work with what I have. :(

Do alot of cops fail to practice with their firearms? Yes its true. Many cops are not into shooting and look upon their sidearm as just one of many tools that comes with the job. Some department have mandatory range sessions at least once a month and many of these department also provide practice ammo. Which is the only way to get many of those officers to shoot. But providing ammo for 50,100,250,600 or more officers can get real expensive, even with reloading abilites. So many departments, to include mine, require officers to qualify at least a couple times a year. It's up to the individual officer to provide his or her's own ammo for practice.

However I would like to address the military in this regard. I spent eight years on active duty with the Army and another six years in the Reserve and National Guard. In the Regular Army we would go to the range a couple times a year. I remember one year (97) we shot a whole lot. We did our two qualifications and we also spent a few days doing live fire training, working on our break contact drills and fire manuever drills. That was an unusual year. Most of the time we shot a whole lot more blanks then live ammo.Now I know that many of the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are probably shooting a fair amount, but I don't know what's going on with the troops who aren't in the combat zones. However I'm willing to bet that they aren't getting much more trigger time then I did back in the day.

Now why is it that the military with all it's money is like that? Well there are time constraints, other training demands, and the fact that ammo is expensive. I've read that a handful of troops like the Seals and Delta will shoot alot, but those elite units probably only make up no more than 2% of all the military branches. the average soldier dosen't get to shoot all that much. And even if they are right now when the hostilites end the armay will go back to old ways again. Armies are known for that.

My point being that police departments and armies are made up mostly of average people with average abilites who don't really care about shooting. It's just oone of many things they're required to do by their respective employers. Fair or not it has to be up to the institutions to provide them with the training and practice time and the institutions don't do that. And as I also pointed out earlier the rules are different for the cops. That has an effect on how we react to bad guys.
 
I think a .38 Special, loaded with well designed +P rounds, is fine. If you do get a .357 Magnum, at least if you want to fire those magnum loads, don't get a lightweight snubnose. It's placement above all else, and a short sight radius pistol loaded with hot magnum loads discharging in a lightweight package is the opposite of want you want on all 3 counts, for accuracy.
 
Jeff


"My point being that police departments and armies are made up mostly of average people with average abilites who don't really care about shooting. It's just one of many things they're required to do by their respective employers. Fair or not it has to be up to the institutions to provide them with the training and practice time and the institutions don't do that. And as I also pointed out earlier the rules are different for the cops. That has an effect on how we react to bad guys."


That's exactly the reason I think America is in the shape it is today. Too many people relying on others.

Back in my glory days, 40 years ago, If a man had a problem with something, he fixed it. If he couldn't fix it after a hundred or so attempts, he bought it.

People made do with what they had back then. They learned just about every aspect of whatever it was, and used it. If they didn't get the results they wanted, they tried something different with it, but after a while they figured it out and made it work perfectly for them... that especially went for rifles and pistols. Most of which practiced them once or twice a week, and shot them 2 or 3 times every month.


Todays shooters want the gun to do all the work. afterall, it shot pretty good in the movies, right? Or it shot pretty good by a gun reviewer who had it locked down on a table vice shooting at a stationary target from 25 yds..

Practice is what is needed, not a red dot or a laser or scope or new grips or newer more powerful ammo (although, they sure help a lot when you know what you're doing). And whether you're in the military or the police force, or a civilian, if you have or carry a weapon it is up to YOU, to practice with it... Your life and the well being of friends and family may one day depend on it. Is that something you're willing to rely on from others. I betcha' the BGs don't.

And as far as those that don't care to shoot, they're generally the ones hiding behind a car or trash can or much worse, dead when the going gets tough, and they have no business trying to protect my rights.

That's just my 2 cents.
 
Rangefodder

That is the truth.

I also in my younger earlier glory days, (still looking for that last good shootout) we counted on the ability to use what we were issued and carried as back up. Lets see Saps and Sap Gloves, Knives, second guns usually the 38 6 shot because you might need that extra round, on and on etc..

We were bigger back then, had to be, the requirements were stricter, shot better, had to, had less ammo on you. We had the model 37 in 12 gage,
double 00 buck as a back up, usually at the ready. On and on etc..

Less back-up, toughter mentality. Brutal comes to mind but not unfairly.

Sorry the truth hurts.

Harley
 
.38 Special

As Bill Jordan says in "No Second Place Winner", "Speed and power are fine, but accuracy is final." It's only the hits that stop.
 
I don't mean to burn any bridges on my first post here but I have to ask why so many are convinced some "psycho on drugs" will attack them. I see this time and time again. Many here seem certain a man will someday walk out of his house, discover some PCP in his pocket, use it, begin walking down the street and then suddenly realize he needs to try to kill the next guy he sees.

Now is this based off of paranoia, buying into over-the-top anti-drug propaganda that makes people think most/all drugs make people do those sorts of things or just fantasizing about blowing holes in people? Sorry if that's too blunt.

Now I have to say I absolutely do not take any illegal drugs and think it's our right to own and use a firearm in this country but.. come on... saying things like a .38 MAY not be sufficient because someone crazed on 'drugs' is going to attempt to murder you and you aren't sure if that ammo will blow a large enough hole in them is just a BIT out in left field.

(Yes, I realize some here have a cousin whose friend's coworker was attacked by someone who had a drug in his system)

Keep it sane, guys :) If baddies not stopping after being shot unless it's tremendously devastating was really that HUGE of an issue, don't you think those put in place to take care of them (ie: police officers) would be carrying huge S&W .460 Mag revolvers? ;)
 
LOL! The underlying concern is of course will even a .38 Special +P be enough to penetrate the hardened shells of alien invaders if the gun owner is singled out for an attempted alien abduction event! Statistics here are hard to come by the the general feeling is that the 38+P is sufficient with proper shot placement to take out ordinary worker aliens but may not be adequate if you have to face the hive queen! Dennis
 
In my neighborhood, taking PCP is mandatory for civilians. The government has deemed it necessary, and so we just take it every day. Everyone here is over 7 feet tall, very angry and has sharp teeth. No one has a job, and when they're hungry they try to eat each other.

Concealed carry is just not practical, as we can't afford the one or two seconds to clear the gun from its holster. Most of us carry sawed-off double-barrelled 12-gauge shotguns openly, in a low-ready position while we attempt to gnaw at the arm or leg of our neighbor for sustenance.

I'd say we have about 2 weeks before we are all dead from shotgun wounds or from being eaten, but I refuse to move. The location is great and we got an excellent interest rate!

~Ichiro
 
Enough stopping power........

Hey, Workin Ike, are you having fun yet?

In a perfect world, I would carry something that threw out a “big bullet moving slow”. No question about stopping power. But the reality is, even some of the new .45 LC and .44 Spec. Taurus and S&W revolvers are heavy when loaded (and Crimson Trace hasn’t offered Laser Grips for them yet, either).

If you can handle the weight, go with a heavier gun, heavier bullet. If you can’t, then my choice is a fairly light .38 Special, loaded with Hydra-Shok +P rounds, with the plan of emptying the gun “in the gravest extreme”, then running as fast as I can away from the problem to reload, get help, etc.

I love my snub-nosed S&W Model 642 Ultralight (concealed hammer) .38 Special, and I also hate it. I love the weight and compact size, but absolutely hate practicing with it. It is a handful, and more so since I put the new rubberized Laser Grips on it and put a Wilson spring kit in it. The Laser Grips are not as “cushy” as the original Hogues that came on it, and it just plain hurts my hand to shoot it. The spring kit helped with the tough trigger pull, but now the cylinder rotates unevenly and my accuracy went to heck. I’m still deciding what I should do about this problem………..

I decided long ago that a .357 was not a good choice (for me). I prefer to shoot people one at a time, and I don’t want over-penetration problems. Not to mention the fact that I do not want to go deaf if I have to shoot from inside my car or something.
 
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